Saturday, July 17, 2021

Quantification Overuse in vs debating

So there's been a long running trend in vs debating that I wanted to address because I think it's getting really out of hand. 

There's always been something of a difference in thought between more qualitative vs debating and more quantiative vs debating; that is to say vs debaters who care more about the types of powers characters have and those who care more about ability we have to quantify what they can do. Back during the really early days of vs debating it was really important to get people to realize that scale actually mattered. This is the time period where things like the Flash attosecond meme came from to impress on people that having super speed wasn't itself a defense against the Flash's speed, the time period where people still argued as though characters having super endurance, strength, or speed were just a binary set instead of a scale of ability, and where pretty much all abilities were thought at best in terms of counters.

This trend has continued from that point to this day and imo I think it's gone too far in the other direction to the point that people seem determined to reduce every single thing to quantification and ignore any qualitative thinking. Now it's not that sympathetic to that cause, I do constantly try and find ways to create hierarchies for different abilities so that they can be assessed but I also think people are often too strict on who is stronger/faster or what have you based on a raw numbers game.

From what I can tell most instances of quantification we have in fiction are not meant to be exact numbers; they're approximations usually with assumptions or lowballing in place to give us something to work with. But people don't treat them like that, they treat them like these numbers are really clearcut. When the numbers are really clearcut that is one thing, but...

Well to give an idea, if a character scales to being roughly even, maybe a bit weaker to a character with a baseline A feat, let's saying baseline planet. Character A uses all their might to destroy a planet and another charater, Character B fought them going all-out somewhat evenly. Meanwhile Character C gave a punch that was calced lowballed a 10% planetary without any sign of strain or difficulty. Some people will legitimately say B is 10 times stronger because the highest calced feat for C is 10% the feat B scales too, despite the fact that one is treated as something of an upper limit while the other one is if anything a casual feat. That's an example where I would pretty clearly treat them as being in the same general range. Or when two characters both scale to being massively above the same feat when so much of it is unquantifable or unknown I would not base any argument of one being stronger. Or when a mach 50 "Hypersonic" character fights a Mach 120 "Massively Hypersonic Character", it should be recognized that's a difference of like 2.4x which is well within the differences between two humans in speed and at anything but close range is a very counterable speed difference and not just "x blitzes" even if the faster character DID try and blitz at max speed off hand.

This tendency towards quantification I also think can be seen in the vogue for debating the strongest characters in fiction at the moment. Currently on vs battles wiki the view is that when comparing 2 characters of sufficient tier that it is a battle of purely power and haxes don't matter. That's to me not what it seems to me at all. For characters who transcend concepts of "power", "numbers", "infinity", "quantification" and so on, it would seem that it is the inverse; "power" doesn't matter at all and it is entirely in qualitative capabilities that they can be differentiated. 

I suppose I am writing this blog to ask the reader to keep in mind that raw numbers are not the whole story as very often the numbers are a thing we can extract from the details of the text but there are elements in the text that make the numbers more a general sense of something rather then, usually, a very specific "this character's power is at exactly this number."

2 comments:

  1. What are your thoughts on scaling vs quantifiable feats? I can think of characters like Kyle Rayner for example that have great quantifiable feats (arguably the best of any main lantern) but in terms of scaling and actual fights always needs up being below people who don't really have as many impressive quanitifbale feats. In judging battles how do you reconcile these differences? These types of characters have great feats on their own but always fight like idiots or end up scaling below other characters in fights or team books.

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    1. Well the way I think of it is that everything should be accepted to avoid contradiction even if it leads to strange conclusions. Kyle's a bit of an interesting case because Green Lanterns have a sort of built in explanation for why their powers vary as their power is based on their will and surges ot it. Therefore pretty much any high or low end can be explained by "their will was high or low at this point"

      This can get to some pretty weird conclusions, since at times it should seem like their will should be stronger here than there, even when evidently it's not, but I am perfectly fine with the unintuitiveness trade-off for lack of contradiction.

      Generally I scale characters to anyone who has ever seemed even with them and has never been stomped by them. I elaborate more on this idea in this blog:
      https://realdeathbattleimp.blogspot.com/2020/06/the-problems-with-scaling-spider-man.html

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