Saturday, October 30, 2021

Sugar Sugar Rune-verse Strategy Guide

 


How to be OP in the Sugar Sugar Rune-verse.


Local Scale Threat:

Outside our universe is another world, whose top half is called the magical world, and whose lower half, a perfect mirror of the upper half, is called Underworld. The leaders of the Magical World are called Witches and Warlocks, the magical humans. Their society is one where things are opposite from the human world, where cuteness is outcasted and the most attractive people are the scariest. Two witches and best friends, heirs of the legendary witches, are sent to the human world to compete in collecting ecure, the magical energy of the heart, to compete to see who will become the next queen.

This is the tier for pretty much all inhabitants of the magical world and the underworld. Most are treated as physically relative with stronger power through magic. Physically everyone magical in the verse scales to wall level+ with the two queen contestants Chocolat and Vanilla, Vanilla being considered physically weak, being able too, as early as the first page of the manga, completely tank being submerged in the magma of a giant witch's cauldron acting as a portal to the human world. Chocolate, along with her male admirer classmates Haux and Saule, accidentally crash through the Palace roof causing a lot of debris without injury after a flying accident. Also, when Chocolat and Vanilla were very young a dragon threatened Vanilla and so Chocolat just physically beat it up to defend her. Chocolat might be higher physically as she is well praised for her physical capacity, with Vanilla thinking she could beat up everyone in their class including the boys, and who once survived falling from the magical world's moon to the ground, though given the magical world's strange physics, this may not mean the same as a similar feat in the human world. 

With magic the characters attack potency and durability rises to building level with battles between experienced witches and warlocks creating small dimensions and warping the local environment. Chocolat and Vanilla's mentor, Rockin Robin was able to use his magic to split a house into two seperate complete houses, each half the size of the original, and darkened the sky with clouds with his anger. In the final battle of the manga, singular attacks from Ogres, the outcasts of magical world living in the desolate underworld could destroy buildings with singular attacks. Magical shields are of similar to even superior durability. When the warlock royal guard Liutenant Glace and Rockin Robin were attacking together, they were able to completely melt ogres yet Chocolate's shield was able to block an attack from both of them. Vanilla was also able to create a beach with her magic, although this was clearly a highly difficult taxing feat for her. The smallest beach in the world is "Playa de Gulpiyuri" which stretching 40 meters would easily qualify for building level. It's very possible this feat could be higher, and likewise Chocolate has her own ambigious but potentially really high feat of her love illuminating the depths of the Underworld.

In terms of speed Chocolat and Vanilla flew up to the Moon in the human world, which is one of the few entrances to the magical world. The timespan is unknown, but it clearly from context isn't a long time, and in pretty much any reasonable timespan would be at least massively hypersonic. Rockin Robin also claimed he had to fly back and forth between magical world and human world at least 3,000 times in one night because of Chocolat's antics, although he may be exaggerating for effect, and its unknown which entrance he used. 

So this verse has a really large numbers of powers for its tier. As mentioned above, a battle between two experienced magic-users involves the two creating small shields/pocket dimensions around them and warping their surroundings as they battle. Various witches are specifically noted to be associated with specific elements, not that they can't use other elements, but that these are their specialties, for instance Poivre is a water warlock yet conjured a tornado. The elements that various characters have manipulated include light, darkness, sand, water, ice, wind, and lightning. Characters can also conjure things out of thin air however they've mostly been things not particularly useful in combat like flowers or chocolates, although as mentioned before Poivre created a small tornado. In terms of physical magic, witches can also use the classic witch trick of transmutation with Chocolat threatening to turn one of her classmates into a monkey if he doesn't ask Vanilla out. There's also a binding spell that feels like being constricted by thorny vines.

The verse moreso specializes in non-physical magic, the primary focus of the manga. Magic-users can create visions, even visions of the entire cosmos which is a pretty insane illusions feat. Witches and warlocks focus on emotional manipulation, stealing the hearts of people in order to use the emotional energy, ecure, for their power, with very skilled ones able to manipulate large groups of people at once. Taking the heart from someone erases their memories, though seperate memory erase magic exists for when they don't want to take their heart. Even deeper then one's heart, a witch or a warlock can steal a person's soul, that which generates new hearts, however this is a difficult forbidden act, liable to cause one massive punishment if caught. The verse is also full of enchanted items specifically for boosting one's charisma and ability to manipulate emotionally such as perfume that makes you smell whatever someone likes most and a spell that makes ones hair and lips shine and the very first spell Chocolat and Vanilla learn is a spell to see the heart and emotional state of others. It's pretty clear this is a verse built on emotional and psychological manipulation tactics, magical and not.

Of all the emotions, love is strongest, followed the negative emotions of jealousy and hatred the latter of which form the noir hearts. Noir hearts are usually untouchable to most as they passive suck the lifeforce of animals and plants, killing them, even killing them instantly through physical contact. The Ogres, outcasts of the magical world and inhabitants of the underworld have learned to channel this magic just as the witches and warlocks channel most emotions and can survive and utilzie the noir's power. Ogres can use their power to freeze people solid and resist even the powerful emotional manipulation of witches, with Pierre their prince being the exemplar of this to the point even Chocolat and Vanilla found it highly difficult to move his emotions. Ogres, while in darkness, also have a regen factor capable of letting them regenerate from being melted by intense light.

Pierre is one of the three strongest mages of this tier, the other two being the two queen contestants themselves; Vanilla and Chocolat. Vanilla is a sweet girl looked down upon in magical world but the most popular girl of her school in the human world. Most of her magic is cutesy things not particularly useful in combat like creating bubbles though late in the manga she develops the ability to seal things away in pictures. While she's a timid witch whose fears include "frogs, scary movies, birds feet, people dancing too fast" and most of her arsenal isn't that dangerous, she is well recognized for her sheer intelligence to the point that Chocolat called her "smarter then anybody." and who matched her's mothers legendary performance on the queenliness test.

Even stronger then Vanilla is her best friend, protector, and reluctant rival Chocolat. Chocolat is a physical powerful witch with Vanilla thinking she could beat up the boys of their class, a class which includes ghosts, and who has physically protected her since they were little. While not as smart as Vanilla, Chocolat is quite smart herself, getting all 100s on her exams in the human world. While all witches have some resistance to emotional manipulation, Chocolat in particular has extreme resistance to fear, nothing seems to scare her. When Sylvia cast a spell of Chocolat's greatest fears, Chocolat confidently said they would be a piece of cake. The spell then conjured a duplicate of Chocolat who only succeeded in making Chocolat angry. Chocolat also has an enhanced sense of smell, able to smell the scent of the magical world on someone, can unseal people that Vanilla sealed, and is a filter, a special type of witch that can touch noir hearts without dying and purify them into white hearts of innocence. Also Chocolat arguably has metafictional movement. While there are several instances of fourth wall breaking, with even a dog being excited to have more panel time, in a side story Chocolat tells Vanilla she snuck into the creator of the manga's studio which we see. This metafictional movement may make her very difficult to beat as she can just escape at any time going into a space almost no character could follow her. Chocolat also has special robes soft as a kitten's tummy, wet as morning dew, which keep her warm, particularly important for fighting ogres.

Beyond all these there's also several magical species that could get involved. Chocolat and Vanilla's class is a collection of Halloween creatures including ghouls and ghosts, skeletons, and walking pumpkins. The underworld has a vicious species called the Bionic Wolves, which get bigger and stronger the more you fear it. The magical world is host to an extremely dangerous plant species called Mandragoras who if picked from the ground will create a scream that instantly kills all who hear it. Finally probably the biggest threat is the Nihilist Spider, a giant spider made to erase the forgotten path to the magical world. The Nihilist Spider is a spider strong enough that even Chocolat and Pierre couldn't beat it without deception and working together, its blood being a darkness that can transport one to another dimension. The Nihilist Spider creates webs that erase anything that touches them; people or magic, and even spacetime. This erasure is so potent that it would erase even the forgotten path, a path between human world the magical world containing endless darkness and whole galaxies in some unknown time. Chocolat only managed to get around it by exploiting their shared history, as the Nihilist Spider used to be her mount in the magical world before its current job.

So how to fight this verse? Well while the verse has really broken offenses including existence erasure, reality-warping, and soul stealing its defenses aren't that good. Witches can be completely stopped by basic binding, characters using wind manipulation to keep them from speaking or stealing their voices. Even the fearsome Nihilist Spider was stopped basically by Chocolat distracting it from the front, and Pierre attacking it from behind where it couldn't block an attack. The verses defenses include a general resistance to emotional manipulation, Chocolat's robes protecting from the cold, basic magic forcefields, ogres regen and ghost astral existence, of which only the last two require any real strategy to get around. The verse also lacks much in the way of advanced fighting skills, mostly relying on magic. Speaking of emotional manipulation however, the power is actually really strong in the verse. While the heart of a witch is harder to get then a human heart, witches' souls can't generate new hearts if their heart is taken, so if her heart is taken she dies instantly. The combination of a highly stoic heart resistant to emotional manipulation along with extreme emotional manipulation is what makes the ogres so dangerous, their ability to take hearts and not have their noir hearts taken in turn. Of the four strongest threats at this tier Vanilla's timidity and lack of confidence and Chocolat's impulsive anger can both be manipulated, and the Nihilist Spider, while harder, can be manipulated with it only not really working on Pierre due to his specifically high resistance.

In addition the verse relies on ecure, the magical energy of emotions to perform their fear. Energy-draining can completely remove their magic, and in places without ecure like the human world, magic is vastly harder to do to the point that Chocolat couldn't fly in the human world for a long time when it's as natural as walking in the magical world. BFR-ing one to a place without magic is a threat to basically everyone in the verse. Haux and Saule also have a forest in the magical world where magic can't grow, presumably due to the strange nature of the forest, where BFR-ing any magic-user would completely nullify their powers.

This leads into a very specific strategy I think would be strong, that being sufficiently strong plant manipulation. Plants and herbs in the Sugar Sugar Rune-verse are quite strong, being the source of potions, thorny vines being able to bind a witch to keep her from casting, creating forests that nullfiy magic, and including the extremely dangerous Mandragora which can kill anyone with its cry. This brings me to my first counter



Poison Ivy from DC Comics

Poison Ivy is comparable in speed to her girlfriend Harley Quinn who has lightning timed and has withstood full force strikes from Clayface, who is considered one of the physically strongest Batman villains, putting her as roughly about on par with the speed and power of the verse, if a bit on the slower side.

Poison Ivy has a connection to the green that lets her sense flora on a city-wide scale at least and summon plants from across the planet. Given she is immune to all floral abilities she could simply summon up mandragora whose scream would insta-kill anyone nearby. For longer range options she could summon the anti-magic forest of Haux and Saule or simply bind any witch she's fighting with vines. She is particularly good at using poisons to induce brainwashing or paralysis. The former could just easily take advantage of the verse's weakness, by allowing her to steal her hearts (and her pheremones have worked on women before), while the latter would keep anyone nearby from interefering with magic as she did so. Her mind hax has worked at least briefly on characters with vastly better emotional resistance then anyone in the verse like Superman and Batman.

In terms of defense, Poison Ivy can distract with armies of plant/animal hybrids she's created before (which may be even stronger if she can incorporate things like Mandragora/Bionic Wolf), create a plant duplicate of herself, or layers of plant armor to keep them from reaching her. With this she can even probably defeat the Nihilist Spider, decieving it with a clone or minions from in front and then killing it from behind. Notably no one in Sugar Sugar Rune has demonstrated fire manipulation naturally which is traditionally Ivy's weakness and it's possible their emotional manipulation wouldn't work on Ivy as Ivy due to her mutation is described as more plant than animal, and one in the verse has shown the ability to affect non-animal based life. Especially given she's vastly more intelligent than anyone in the verse creating advanced technology like genetically enginerring a mind controlling plant and is a vastly more skilled fighter, being roughly on par with Harley Quinn and Catwoman.

There's really only three threats I can think of. One is that as a plant Poison Ivy needs nutrients in soil, water, and sun to survive. Magical world has stars but they're strange orange stars and the world has a different physics to the human world meaning she may starve in the magical world with no way to get back. The second is the Ogres in general. While the cold probably wouldn't bother her as she's withstood extreme cold before, the noir hearts explicitly draw out the lifeforce of animals and plants, and if she got around a black noir heart, it would likely kill her. Finally Poison Ivy can't hit the ghosts, though she can manipulate others into doing it for her. While none of these are likely a problem if Poison Ivy wins quickly, for a less flashy but arguably more efficient counter in the long-run one could us


Kyubey from the Puella Magi-verse

Kyubey is fast enough to avoid repeated attacks from Homura, putting it in line with the speed of the verse. While its power is neglible for the verse, it's not required.

Kyubey is an incubator, a species that is a Type 4+ civilization battling entropy focused on extracting energy from emotions. This is a verse of a magical humanoid species that extract magical energy of such signicant quantity it can create a universal space. It's a setting perfectly set up for Kyubey to manipulate its way to controlling. Kyubey is a skilled psychological manipulator with an intelligence cosmically higher than anyone in the verse and could easily manipulate someone like Vanilla into contracting, and eventually turning into a witch, a being far stronger then anyone in the tier.

Kyubey can come back from having its body destroyed any number of time, and it has literally no emotions meaning its almost impossible to stop for the verse. Witches can maybe steal Kyubey's soul but such is a forbidden technique they wouldn't want to do, and Kyubey can do the same to them. The Nihilist Spider's existence erasure...MIGHT work, but Kyubey can far better manipulate the Nihilist Spider then Chocolat. 

Kyubey can manipulate its way into extracting and utilizing the immense magical power of emotions, even a full universe of it, that exists in the verse, and stopping anyone who threatens it goals via soul stealing and sealing or teleporting into an area like the anti-magic woods with hyperadvanced technology, where it can hax anyone who tries to follow. Incubators can even go inside peoples dreams, a place no one in the verse can follow similar to Chocolat's metafictional movement.

However, if someone were to try and use their emotional sensing on Kyubey, they'd realize it lacks emotions which may make them worry about it, and Kyubey who looks "cute" in-universe, would consequently be seen as ugly in the magical world, a world where scary is attractive. While these can be worked around, Kyubey has one more threat which is if it unluckly runs across Pierre too early and doesn't escape fast enough, Pierre could just freeze Kyubey and it wouldn't really have much it could do to stop that. 

However the ultimate counter for this tier is a character I think could blend elements from both of these counters, that being 


Zetsu from Naruto

Zetsu's power and speed varies depending on who he's currently attached too, but even attached to very low tier characters, Zetsu's power jumped to a level equal if not high for this tier's higher end interpretation given he was able to fight the Mizukage and amping young Obito to defeat a platoon of elite ninja from the mist village, scaling to at least above Chunin's feats of Kidomaru firing an arrow at lighting speed and characters moving relative to Sasuke's chidori which is made of lightning as well as to Jiboro's feat of throwing a Choji who grown massively larger than the surronding trees putting it about the power level of the higher end interpretation of Vanilla's beach creation feat something that was difficult for her although was done in the human world. Zetsu even by himself would thus be easily a high tier in terms of power and speed for the tier, complimented by his massive skill advantage. While more of a spy then a frontline fighter in Naruto, Zetsu demonstrates far more advanced combat skill than anyone in the SSR-verse, having mastered all 5 nature transformations a feat of masterful skill in the Naruto-verse.

Zetsu is the embodied will of Kaguya who manipulated all the events of Naruto, 1,000 years of history for the purposes of Kaguya's resurrection including every major event. Zetsu could pretty easily manipulate the emotions and psychologies of the verse, especially because his spooky appearence would fit the magical world way more then Kyubey and he actually has emotions. But while he has emotions, his emotions are formed from the will of Kaguya and he could easily resist all the non-physical hax of the verse. Sugar Sugar Rune from Zetsu's perspective is basically a verse of Genjutsu users, and while some are quite impressive, Zetsu was able to resist the Infinite Tsukuyomi, a Genjutsu cast on everyone on the world at once, a mental hax feat vastly anything in the verse. Zetsu could easily fit in to magical world society, manipulating people psychologically or stealing their hearts if needed while pretending to simply be another spooky halloween monster. Zetsu's usual tactic of inflitration would likely be quite effective especially when combined with his ability to shapeshift, which he could use to manipulate peoples emotions by pretending to be someone else. You might think Chocolat's superhuman smell would be able to detect him, but White Zetsu's Mayfly technique allows him to even copy Shinboi's unique chakra signature meaning even sensory Ninja were unable to detect him. In contrast Zetsu has his own potent sensory abilities, able to sense Jinchuriki's chakra from other countries, meaning he would have constant awareness of any threats current position.

Zetsu's usual tactic of stealth-ing behind someone, and attaching himself to them, paralyzing them allowing him to possess them would absolutely work on the verse as paralyzing a witch would clearly keep her from using her magic. This would give him the ability to use any of the abilities of the verse except with basically limitless stamina as he pump energy inside the person like he did to Obito to keep him from dying from Rene Rebirth. Even if caught out in the open by numbers, Zetsu can use his malleability and elemental manipulation to fight multiple people at once. Zetsu as mentioned has mastered all 5 basic transformations and so can use lightning, water, and wind, manipulation better then any demonstrated in the verse to counter their own, can use earth manipulation to counter the verse's sand manipulation, and his fire manipulation to counter darkness/ice manipulation. Only the verse's light manipulation does he not really have a defense against but the only known witch specializing in it is Sylvia who usually starts with summoning an enemy's worst fear, which Zetsu could likely resist due ot the above Infinite Tsukuyomi resistance feat. Zetsu can even hit ghosts as chakra can affect astral entities. Zetsu can also drain energy with his spores, even being able to drain the energy of Kurama, Naruto, and Sasuke, meaning he would pretty much instantly stamina-deplete anyone in the verse he gets a spore on. This would also provide a resistance to Noir hearts since they kill by draining lifeforce, but Zetsu himself can drain chakra from others, and has himself a massive amount of chakra and regen due to having Hashirama cells.

Most of this is what Black Zetsu could do without White Zetsu and would be enough, but White Zetsu adds a few extra broken abilities, most notably wood jutsu which would hypothetically allow him to manipulate the trees of Haux and Saule's forest and the mandragora. White Zetsu also gave the ability to fuse with the surroundings, and while a witch could hypothetically warp the surroundings to hit him still, this dramatically amps Zetsu's speed and gives him a massive stealth advantage making him another massive degree harder for the verse to stop. Oh and White Zetsu also showed the ability to grow THOUSANDS OF CLONES OF HIMSELF and hide them all underground to come up if he dies or all at once for an army, and if he does that it's obviously the end of the verse. A similar sized army of basic ogres was going to destroy magical world, and one Zetsu is a threat for the entire tier.


World Scale Threat:

So the strongest characters in the Sugar Sugar Rune-verse are the witches and warlock of legend, and when they're actually doing things it's like an entirely different series. 6 witches and 1 warlock fled from the human world to create a magical world, literally creating the entire dimension, a dimension very clearly its own universe with just one of the paths to it containing "endless darkness" as well as whole galaxies and the underworld palace being stated to have infinite rooms. In terms of speed, Chocolat's grandfather easily flew to Saturnus, another planet in the magical world in a short time for a vacation. While it's unknown how Chocolat's grandfather ranks in the magical hierarchy, contextually it's pretty clear that he's not as strong as the witches of legend the top tiers of the magical world. As such the top tiers of the verse reach FTL Universal. 

The warlock of legend is Glace, grand duke of darkness and essentially the big bad of the manga. It is said that the 6 witches of legend were initially his wives, but in trying to please all of them, he could satisify none of them, who sealed him away together, making a seal only someone of Glace's blood could break. 

The biggest threat of this tier is by far Glace. Glace is millenia old, and despite being sealed away all that time has shown through cosmic awareness that he has watched Chocolate even when she went to the human world. Glace is a cosmically powerful warlock capable of blanketing the magical world with the life-draining darkness of Noir and is implied he could do the same with the human world. Even more then darkness he is associated with ice, called the "Legendary Warlock of Ice and Snow" and capable of freezing the entire magical world. His power is so great that at his defeat, the stars fell from the sky due to his control of the world, claiming that he himself was the world. His power comes from his immense noir heart of hatred, granting himself the power of darkness and all the powers of the magical world, literally every ability of the previous tier. It certainly makes sense that it is stated that even everyone else in the magical world could not beat him even attacking at once.

Glace also has a few more special unique techniques. He can energy drain, even draining the power of the Fire Crystal which allowed a normal witch to gain power relevant to his. Glace created a dome around his palace that reflected all magic that was tried to use against it. He also can create a whirlwind of noir energy that made people similar to him in power shake from its power and was threatening the magical world. Glace also has creation and time manipulation for creating the magical world and underworld, a dimension where time moves 10 times slower. There's also the Moebius spell which causes space to cycle in on itself so one can travel infinitely and never reach where one's going inside Glace's palace, but its unclear if Glace caused this or its part of the seal on him. 

The magical world does contain two witches strongly implied to be of at least relevant power to Glace, the successors of the witches of legend. One of these is Queen Candy, queen of the magical world and mother of Vanilla, known for her wisdom and intellect who ruled over magical world fairly despite attempts from the magical world senate to undermine her control. During the climax of the series, Queen Candy turns herself into pure spirit to carry the emotional energy of everyone trapped by Glace up to Cinnamon and Chocolat against Glace, though such ended her life. Cinnamon herself is the other one, the original rival to Candy for queenship, and mother of Chocolat. She is a cunning witch that managed to trick Glace despite his cosmic awareness, and liker her daughter is a filter, the two of them believing they could use their filter powers to purify Glace's massive noir heart. Cinnamon also showed some resistance to transmutation, maintaining her magical power as a cat and being able to claw open Glace's anti-magic dome. Candy and Cinnamon are master mages and should have at least most of the powers of the prior tier.

Roughly comparable to the queen are the magical world senate, a group of politicans and mages of high rank who act against her. Not much is known about their abilities but they're implied to be collectively roughly on Candy's level, and they control all spells that can be cast in magical world again showing they should have basically all abilities of the prior tier. The last threat on this tier is Fire Crystal Chocolat. Chocolat temporarily gained the Fire Crystal, a magical item that boosted her power to battle Glace, and gave her fire magic capable of warding off Glace's darkness and ice manipulation. Otherwise she seems to basically have the same abilities. The Fire Crystal normally sits within Queen Candy's wand, but went to aid Chocolat at her will. 

So how do you fight this? These are extremely versatile hax magical users who unlike the prior do actually have pretty good defenses. Glace technically had the weakness that he was somewhat low on stamina, but this was a temporary weakness caused by his long imprisonment, and may not really apply here since it wouldn't apply to his prime self. Glace himself does have some weaknesses, one being he's arrogant and despite his cosmic awareness can be distracted only focusing on what he cares too. Powerful enough fire manipulation can also hold off his cold and darkness. Sealing obviously worked on Glace, but it took basically the 6 strongest witches in history to seal him away. Purification should also work as it was used to defeat him, though that would only really work on him rather than the other threats.

BFR would be a pretty potent ability in the verse as even the legendary witches were weaker in the human world to the point it was implied humans were a threat, hence them fleeing to a dimension of their own creation, filled with magical emotional energy of humans where they would be much stronger.  I think the biggest weakness of the verse is the fact that all the top tiers use magic for all their abilities. Any kind of anti-magic or energy absorption that can absorb the energy used for magic cripples the verse. The most ideal strategies don't so much focus on fighting the inhabitants of the verse but on the verse itself, attacking the magical space the witches rely on.

So who would be a good counter? Well my first idea is


Tyrannon the Thousand-Headed God from Champions.

Tyrannon is somewhere in the top 3 strongest magical villains of the Champions Universe along with Shadow Destroyer and Takofanes, easily scaling into the universal range as it's pretty consistent that the strongest master villains are universal threats, as well as Tyrannon's direct feat of shaping his home dimension of Thulkos. There is some objection to this based on the note that his reality-warping is "only" galaxy level, but reality-warping capability isn't neccesary the same as destructive capacity. Just logically reality-warping something seems harder than just destroying it. In terms of speeds, even relatively low level Champions have lightspeed capabilities and Tyrannon should be faster than his hated rival's Istvatha's minions starships which can travel 1 lightyear per day, speeds over 365x lightspeed, giving him a distinct stat advantage over the verse.

Tyrannon is a gestalt entity residing within 888 bodies, 800 of which are his Emissaries which are individually as strong as a normal witch in the SSR-verse, 80 of which are Viceroys vastly stronger than anyone but a legendary witch or warlock, and the 8 thrones are the main threats each equal to one of the legendary witches, of which there's only 5 threats on this tier capable of one, one-on-one including the entire magical senate as one and Fire Crystal Chocolat meaning that even generous Tyrannon has the upper tier outnumbered nearly 2 on 1 and realistically if the Viceroys can seperate the senate and fight them it's more like directly 2 on 1.

Tyrannon has a vast magical arsenal of his own, easily capable of matching the verse's versatility, but it's one of his two most well known techniques that would make him almost uncounterable. During a time of a rare cosmic alignment in Thulkos, Tyrannon can bring his 8 thrones together, making him a bit more vulnerable than normal, Tyrannon can use the technique "Cosmic Fusion" to absorb another dimension into his own, rewriting its laws with his own space's rules, his ultimate quest being to absorb all the multiverse into his dimension and eventually into himself. Hypothetically Tyrannon would be more vulnerable during this...but the SSR-verse has no paths to Thulkos and wouldn't have enough time to make one in this scenario, and even if they did Tyrannon has already absorbed all magical energy of his own dimension meaning that any witch, even a legendary one, that went into Thulkos to stop him would be relatively powerless and helpless. 

Even if they do engage in a direct fight, Tyrannon has a bunch of advantages. His other most distinctive ability is why he is known as souleater and the cosmic cancer. Tyrannon can consume entities body and soul into his being assimilating their energy and intellects. Tyrannon was once a single member of a species of wizards who sealed godlike spirits in their bodies but powerhungry Tyrannon began consuming the other wizards absorbing their spirits as well. There's little to reason to think this form of absorption wouldn't work on the SSR-verse, especially given their lack of relative power absorption and soul manipulation resistance, his ability to effect spiritual entities suggesting he could even effect Spirit Form Candy, consuming her like literal candy. Tyrannon also has magic barriers and extremely skilled spellcasting from his background giving him an ability to defend against most of the verse strategies. Against Glace by far the strongest single character in SSR, Tyrannon can not only seal his spirit within him and absorb his power but even at range is known for literally creating suns giving him the title "Sunmaker" and the Fire Throne focuses on fire magic which would probably allow him to ward off the darkness and cold of Glace.

Tyrannon's main throne focuses on plant manipulation and could very likely summon or even amplify the Mandragora scream. It's unknown if this would work on Glace, with a fair argument for either side but it just gives another broken thing he could potentially do, outside of literal galaxy level reality warping capable of reshaping an entire galaxy to his will or mental manipulation able to enslave people across his entire dimension, universal mind manipulation that could let him simply flash absorb the hearts of everyone in SSR.

However Tyrannon does have one weakness which is he's extremely arrogant and will accept suboptimal fighting conditions to prove his greatness. It's very plausible someone like Cinnamon could manipulate him into fighting in the Magical World and walking into a trap. Now granted even in the Magical World Tyrannon has an immense chance of winning but for a more invulnerable character you could use


Taishakuten from RG Veda.

Taishakuten absorbed the previous Ashura, Ashura being a tribe of war gods meant to bring about the end of Earth, Heaven, and Hell, Heaven at least being considered a universal space with "endless land." and which one of his tribe in Tsubasa being considered a more powerful wizard then Fai whose out of control power collapsed a dimension. He's also far faster than Larg the non-fighter who was able to launch "100,000,000 tweets per second" and as a god is presumably stronger than spirits like the Clow Spirits "Light" "Dark" and "Shadow." putting him similar to the tier in stats.

Taishakuten was the primary general of the last Emperor of Heaven and is a powerful thunder god who can use his burning white lightning to keep away the cold and darkness of Glace if they were to fight, though he doesn't really need too. As a magician of tier equivalent to Fai, Taishakuten has an absolutely immense magical resistance allowing him to resist almost all of the abilities of the verse. 

Taishakuten also has sealing abilities strong enough to seal the next Ashura from incarnating which he could presumably use on Glace as the old witches did. He's also a powerful and skilled intellect, who can make plans that span the generations and rules over Heaven, suggesting he can at least compete intellectually with Candy and Cinnamon.

Taishakuten also has a level of absorption, absorbing the last Ashura and gaining his powers, although its not clear if it requires defeating them first. Regardless after absorbing Ashura, he's gained the war god tribe's power of ultimate destruction, to bring about the destruction of Heaven, Earth, and Hell which would allow him to destroy spirit form Candy and the ghosts of SSR with fire. 

That said there's two possible counters the verse has. While the Moebius Trap can't be cast on him due to his magic resistance, it's possible he could be tricked into one by Cinnamon or Candy. If trapped in an infinitely looping space it's unknown if he could get out. Fai's mentor, one of the Ashura tribes is implied to have dimensional travel as Fai was worried he would pursue him through the worlds, but its unknown if this was a learned skill as it seems unrelated to the powers of a war god. Beyond that, Taishakuten's powers come from having absorbed the last emperor, something that sent his heart into spiraling despair. It's possibly Cinnamon or Fire Crystal Chocolat could purify Taishakuten cleansing his heart of its burden and removing the wrongfully gotten war god powers. If such happened, Taishakuten while still a threat with similar raw stats and divine thunder, would lost his resistances and could be beaten 2 or more of the tier's fighters.

But the best counter I think incorporates the best elements of both of the prior counters. For the ultimate counter to this verse you can use


Onaga, the Dragon King, from Mortal Kombat.

Onaga is powerful enough that Shao Kahn resorted to poisoning him rather than fighting him outright, Shao Kahn being the one who was able to merge two realms each the sizes of universes or more as one realm contained a sea that was stated to be bottomless, without end. He's also easily relative to the lightspeeds attacks of Kotal Kahn. This suggests he would be a bit slow for the tier, but dramatically strong in raw power, though he could supplement the speed gap due to his massive skill advantage as he can fight evenly other immortal deities that fight constantly, a level of superhuman skill and coordination way above the SSR-verse.

Onaga is a dragon, and as such has his species natural resistance to magic to the point that even the sorcerers Quan Chi and Shang Tsung could not affect him with their magic, suggesting he'd be able to just flat out tank most if not all of the abilities of the verse. His draconic eyes also gives him another power, a very underrated but extremely strong ability in this matchup, the ability to see souls and into other dimensions. Seeing souls isn't particularly new to the verse, it's basically just the spell to sees peoples hearts passively but seeing through dimensions only Glace was able to do and combined with his travel between dimensions at will, he could simply ambush anyone else in the verse save for Glace, appearing out of nowhere when they don't suspect and hitting them off-guard. This also means he could simply escape a Moebius Trap by going through dimensions.

In combat with Glace Onaga can fight off an initial darkness and cold attack via his draconic fire breath and by then it would be too late as Onaga has the ability to copy abilities after seeing them and if he copied the Ogres ability to manipulate noir freely he would become essentially immune to most of Glace's magic. Literally if Onaga sees any Ogre in the verse use their powers he'll get some resistance to Noir anyway, something aided by him being able to watch them from other dimensions.

He could also manipulate things via astral projecting into the Magical World from another dimension manipulating someone like Chocolate, Glace, or the Magical Senate all of whom have notable personality flaws much in the same way as he manipulated Shujinko his entire life. Only Glace would be able to detect him doing thing, and as mentioned Glace is someone Onaga could manipulate himself. On the other Onaga could use his dragon heart to create a horde of zombie warriors that were capable of battling Earthrealm's protectors, relative to Onaga himself. A similarly sized army of ogres at the end of the manga was a threat to the Magical World, and while not as hax Onaga's zombie army is vastly more powerful, especially if Onaga can revive the fallen of Magical World.

You might think that Chocolate or Cinnamon could purify Onaga as his body was originally Reptile's that Onaga possessed and infused with his own energy transforming it. While Onaga's magic resistance may protect against this, even if it worked, the Magical World has its own dragons, and Onaga could infuse his energy into a dragon egg to be reborn again so long as they lived. Even beyond that filter abilities require physical contact and Onaga can easily keep at range if need be with fire breath and winds sweeping from his wings.

But his real strongest assest alongside his magic resistance is the Kamidogu, six enchanted artifacts that are his goal throughout his entire game. Their ability allows Onaga to absorb realms into him, suggesting he could just flatout absorb the Magical World, power nullifying the entire verse. Onaga has the potentially to immediatly absorb and power nullify everyone in the verse, can resist almost anything they can do, can recover or protect from the rest, and can raise an unending zombie army relative to the roughly 5 top tiers of the verse.



And that's how to be OP in Sugar Sugar Rune. Happy Halloween!

Friday, October 15, 2021

Verse Challenge: Could the Ghost Rider take over DC Comics Hell

 


The Ghost Rider, Heaven's greatest weapon, focal point of all magic in the universe, leader of the spirits of vengeance, and until recently, the king of Hell in Marvel Comics.

DC Comics Hell, the mirror of Heaven within the Sphere of the Gods, a conceptual realm formed by the infinite souls of the damned, a domain given by the Presence to his outcast son Lucifer.

If the Ghost Rider were to find himself within DC Comics, would he be able to take control of its arguably stronger Hell as he did Marvel's?



I think the first point to begin with is comparing raw power. How does Johnny's power compare to the Demons of DC Hell?


Beginning with Ghost Rider, his presence even when heavily weakened was enough to make the dimensional barriers of the universe quake


and his passive power was stated to be able to destroy four parallel universes


However these are the feats of Johnny's passive power. Ghost Rider has a history of easily defeating Dr. Strange and comparing massively favorably compared to him with Dr. Strange calling his power boundless, unimaginable and godlike


Even the power of the Gods known as the Vishanti whom Dr. Strange draws his sorcery was tanked by Ghost Rider


even before getting a host, Zarathos was able to contend with Mephisto and threatened his realm


Johnny and Zarathos' union as the Ghost Rider has defeated Mephisto in his own realm. This Mephisto is strong enough to battle the multiversal abstraction Galactus


Such is the power and immortality of the Ghost Rider that some say that they can threaten all of existence and that none but God can destroy them




To compare with Demons in DC it's important to first differentiate what a demon truly is, vs its emanation. Hell in DC is a platonic archetypal world from the Sphere of the Gods, a realm of archetypal intellects



Existing outside mortal dimensions of space and time in a conceptual space, the beings of the Sphere of the Gods in their true forms are called "godheads", and they emanate a lower aspect into each of the infinite universes, called an "emanation"


Even the worlds themselves have emanations which is why something like the DCAU can have its own Apokalips unaffected by changes to the comic Apokalips. Hell is the dark mirror of Heaven, a realm of perfectly impure mind, where each soul forms their own reality of torment, an infinite, infinitely expanding realm of horrors


The emanation of a demon need not be of any particular strength, Batman has defeated a small demon before without much effort for instance


However the godhead of a Demon is a conceptual being far larger then mortal universes to the point mortal universes are like bubbles on the world of New Genesis.


and to even interact with the mortal universes requires shrinking down massively using Boom Tubes.

Souls in DC are strong enough to form their own afterlife, their own universe around them.


These souls are used as nothing but food, currency, or building material for Demons whose Godheads are clearly vastly more powerful. Another example of this is when the Demon Choronzon, a duke demon stronger then most (High Duke of the Eighth Circle), but not vastly powerful in the Demonic Hierarchy engaged Dream of the Endless in a reality game where they shifted between forms and Choronzon took the form of Anti-Life, the end of universes, only to be defeated when Dream became "Hope."


As the dark at the end of everything, and the end of "universes" this is easily a multiversal feat of some description. Highly powerful Demon Lords like Neron are even stronger and can do battle with the wrath of God, the Spectre


The Spectre is able to do battle with infinitely powerful beings able to recreate the infinite multiverse at will like Parallel Hal Jordan 


Technically Hell has also once contained the great Lucifer Morningstar as well however he doesn't currently reside in Hell and he's also fairly apathetic, letting the political power in Hell shift around without getting involved just to entertain himself.



So it's not like he would intervene to stop Ghost Rider anyway. That said obviously Lucifer is stronger to the point of saying he could destroy any of them, perhaps all of them, without much effort and is stated by Dream to be perhaps the second strongest being in creation after his creator the Presence


So how does Ghost Rider compare with the DC Demonic Hierarchy in terms of raw power?

Honestly it's kind of hard to say as you can pretty fairly highball or lowball either to be stronger. If you consider Johnny "only" low multiversal and each Demon is a multiversal abstract force for whom universal-creating souls are fodder used for food and currency, his power would not rank particularly highly in the DC Hellish hierarchy. On the other chand if you scale GR based on him being able to threaten all of existence and scale most demons to finite multiversal you could argue he's stronger then every demon sans Lucifer. So here's roughly how strong I would think they are relatively. You're free to have a different interpretation but this is my best one:

In the conceptual hierarchy every Demon ranks somewhat, scaling above human souls and mortal universes putting them roughly on the level of GR's passive power or the general magic of Dr. Strange. Being able to threaten Mephisto's realm puts the pure spirit Zarathos on the same range as Galactus, the concept of the balance of life and death which probably is similar in conceptual power as the darkness at the end of everything, suggesting that Zarathos power alone would be rivaling that of a High Duke of Hell. The arch-dukes in general form the top tier of Hell. While Ghost Rider's raw power does not seem to be consistently on the level of the strongest top tiers of Hell that he can threaten structures that maintain existence suggest he would be rivaling that level of hierarchy, and he would also be more then durable enough to withstand strikes from most of them due to his immortality outstretching even his attack potency, able to be warped across the multiverse 


fighting Godlike reality-warping threats and the like. In this way he has a similar immortality to The Spectre which is oddly fitting given their characters. 

What also helps is that Ghost Rider can take advantage of probably the second biggest weakness to DC Demons which is holy weapons and powers. Holy powers are so effective against DC Comics Demons that even the great Lucifer Morningstar was hurt by Etrigan shooting a cross into his back.


 Zarathos is an Angel, an entity of Heaven and such is anathema to Hell


As such overall I think Ghost Rider's power would be above the Dukes of Hell, though not on the level on the levels of the Trimuverate but he can brawl them as he is particularly hard to destroy even for them and his holy nature would weaken their durability signifigantly.

I don't think speed will be too much of an important point in this battle as Hell is a spaceless timeless metaphysical realm, however if the fight ends up crossing into the physical realms, it might prove an advantage. So how do the two's speed compare?

The emanations of Demons need not have any particular speed but Hell Lords are capable of battling the Spectre. In one particular encounter Shathan the Dictator of Dis, the capital of Hell, battled Spectre when Spectre shoots his fist off at the demon which traveled around the whole universe to hit Shathan in the back of the head


Speeds calced at over 6.3 quintillion times the speed of light.

Ghost Rider even when casual can easily match the likes of Marvel Heralds like Dr. Strange and Silver Surfer who can reach speeds of high quadrillions to low quintillions of times the speed of light.




However this was a feat done by a casual Ghost Rider. His full speed is likely far higher, with characters like Galactus, Mephisto, and Odin, characters Ghost Rider scales too, usually being considered higher into the quintillions to sometimes even sextillions of times the speed of light with things like Odin summoning chunks of distant planets to his location from the edge of space to his position in a split second.

This would suggest if Johnny manuevered the fight to enter the mortal universes at any point, he would either be at least comparable or have a notable speed advantage against most of the Hell Lords, however there is one notable exception.

The Demon Neron siphoned the speed from the Flash, gaining similar level of power with the speedforce, a plan he manufactured hoping to use the speedforce to enter and take control of Heaven. 


Given he was planning to use this power to travel an infinite conceptual distance from Hell to Heaven, Neron would likely have the advantage in speed if the two were too fight in a mortal realm. 


So with the general power and speed covered, we can go into more general traits about this particular matchup. First let's tackle what might be the obvious question: can Ghost Rider enter DC Hell and affect the people there? The answer is yes. Ghost Rider can travel into higher planes of reality


was able to escape from a dimension where time does not exist


Was able to fight Dusk, the platonic concept of Madness, affecting it normally


While DC Hell has a lot of properties that difficult to enter, Ghost Rider would pretty clearly be able to drive into it and affect those within it. 

DC Hell is also however a massively inhospitable place to survive within. When Superman's senses were exposed to Hell, he could see the infinite suffering of those within, hate, fear, and despair, driving him to a sorrow that nearly drove him mad



Hell was an experience that frightened even Green Lantern Hal Jordan, "the man without fear"


However while the effects of Hell are psychologically extreme, the Ghost Rider is uniquely suited to withstanding them. Not only was Ghost Rider the king of his own Hell for a truly immense amount of time, with a hundred years passing in seconds on Earth


giving him presumably some resistance to Hellish torments, but Johnny is truly fearless to the point that when approaching the Throne of Hell guarded by the worst fear of whomever sees it, something that affects even the strongest of angels and demons Johnny found it was nothing



as Johnny truly fears nothing and with the added experience would likely be able to withstand the psychological torment of Hell's existence even more then Green Lantern. This is especially true given their characters as Hal is characteristically arrogant and brash, and before going there didn't even believe in Hell so was much more shocked at his ultimate powerlessness. While also brash, Johnny is known for his relaxed and adventurous nature and the infiniteness of Hell would be far less effecting on him.

But what of the madness inducing sorrow and despair? Johnny is a noble individual and could be effected like Superman. Well, Superman was affected because his "perfect senses" could literally see the infinite torment of Hell at once and I don't know if Ghost Rider's senses would do that. Also Ghost Rider has withstood the suicide aura of Wallow showing resistance to supernaturally induced sorrow


and has such a strong resistance to madness that he rode through Dusk's madness-causing dimension for 1,000 days without issue


Overall Ghost Rider is uniquely well equipped to deal with the psychological-spiritual corrupting tormenting nature of DC Hell and would easily be able to tank being there.


So I'm going to be going over the strongest denizens of DC's Hell and how well I think the Ghost Rider would be able to combat them. For the most part I'm only going to be comparing him to the strongest beings of Hell, as most of the demons are not strong enough to really be a viable threat as anything more than a distraction against the real demons. I don't think Blathoxi, Lord of Flatulence 


is going to be particularly relevant here, even if he unironically scales to low multiversal for treating souls like humans do coin. Most demons are only about as strong as Ghost Rider's passive presence and so I don't feel the need to mention... with the exception of Brandor, because I couldn't NOT mention it. 

Brandor is a Demon Motorcycle Rider, king of the pitriders and the "head honcho on the highway to Hell"


Etrigan pretty easily beat him and then stole his bike to make "Toast Rider"


Even if GR did agree to a motorcycle race, Johnny has vastly better motorcycle feats including doing literally physics-defying tricks


Johnny obviously casually beats Brandor in a motorcycle race or a fight, but it was too thematic and relevant to not mention. Possibly he could wager on the race to get Brandor's service or information from him.

DC's Demon Hierarchy has at the top the archdukes ruled traditionally ruled by three demons known as the Triumverate. Being part of the Triumverate doesn't neccesarily make you more powerful, it's a title more than anything, but obviously demons only allow someone to rule over them with very good reason and becoming a Triumverate is one of the most impressive feats a Demon can have in DC Comics. Basically Triumverate members are those with the highest combined power, intellect, and political influence. There have been 4 Triumverates with a combined 9 or 10 members. In Reign of Hell three demons were collectively in control of all of Hell and while they never shared power as they were engaged in civil war, they can be viewed as a fifth unofficial triumverate putting the number to 12 or 13. It is these Triumverate Demons and another roughly dozen very powerful demons relevant to them that form the top tiers of the DC Demon Hierarchy and would be the biggest obstacles to Ghost Rider taking over Hell. I'll be going through them from roughly weakest in raw power to strongest in raw power, though their haxes and intellects will vary.

Firstly there is Nytemayr, Lord of the Forbidden Zone, believed by some to be the eviliest of all


Nytemayr has a very powerful technique, The Sphere of 1,000 Nightmares, trapping an opponent in a bubble of their worst nightmares to fight against what is not real until they die which trapped Etrigan and Lobo


However not only does the power of holy goodness protect from this, but Johnny has resisted a very similar attack when trapped in an endless dream trap made by Nightmare


The Many-Angled Ones are Demons of Forbidden Science, architects of Hell's geography who stole the Sacred Geography of the Angels and twisted it to their maddening unnatural angles


They are extra-dimensional entities


and can consume billions of souls at once, terraforming the Earth


However Ghost Rider was able to defeat Zadkiel, the Dark Angel


Zadkiel was able to control all the souls of Purgatory and warp reality, basically doing what the Many-Angled Ones did but on a much higher scale



Marvel concepts like Dusk are also higher dimensional entities


So Ghost Rider's ability to hit Dusk normally suggests he would also be able to do so to the Many-Angled ones.

A particularly potent Archduke of Hell was the Demon Asteroth, known for his ambition. Asteroth became a powerful wizard by drinking the blood of Merlin and absorbing his life essence for three years


Asteroth's magic is strong enough to let him go toe to toe with Lobo and Etrigan, and most potent he knows of a forbidden ritual that can let drain all the power of an enemy


This would very likely work against Ghost Rider as power draining is something that usually works against him, however absorbing the life essence of Ghost Rider may allow Ghost Rider to rend Asteroth from the inside


Merlin was also able to defeat the Power-Draining Ritual of Asteroth by directing the energy in motion to Etrigan something I think Johnny would likely be able to do, as he already has done something similar reversing the energy-draining of a demon 


Asteroth was also able to split Etrigan and Jason Blood into two seperate entities 


Unlike Jason and Etrigan however, Johnny and Zarathos are in harmony with each other and could simply re-fuse if they chose. This could maybe make Johnny temporarily vulnerable, but even by himself, Johnny is a massively powerful entity, able to defeat Dan Ketch Ghost Rider level enemies consistently through sheer will and skill




 and is a master of occult magic


to the point that Dr. Strange has stated Johnny is next to be Sorcerer Supreme if he were to fall. As such I'm pretty sure Johnny could hold his own if he was de-fused with Zarathos from Asteroth long enough for them to rejoin together.

Asteroth can also take on a battle form where he grows giant and made of hellfire


but um, this would be a pretty stupid move against someone who can control Hellfire freely.


Another Archduke is Morax, the Bull-Beast of Stygia


Both he and Asteroth agree Morax would win a direct confrontation between them 


However Morax doesn't really have notable powers, he'd mostly be a mild physical threat to Ghost Rider. Triskele, Wyrm Queen of Succubus is similar. She's even stronger than Morax as she was able to slay an Archangel


while none of Etrigan's forces, Morax included, had even a chance of defeating the archangel Karrien


This also suggests Triskele would be around the tier of the generals of the Triumverate of power signifigant to that tier, as Asmodel, a fallen archangel was of that rank, obviously before he became the Spectre, 


Asmodel had, although it's unlikely he still can, the ability to use the light of Heaven, a hax light power that ignores physical durability and which drives mad anyone who sees it save those with pure souls


Even if he can still use it however, it would not work on Johnny for he is a pure incorruptible soul


Asmodel also has the ability to cause people to explode


It would be an NLF to suggest he could use this on someone as strong as Ghost Rider when he's only ever done it to normal humans, but even if he did Ghost Rider's regen allows him to regenerate from having every part of his physical form destroyed


The prior mentioned demon Chronozon I believe would be around here being the captain of the Triumverate member Beezlebub's horde


As mentioned earlier, Chronozon has the power to turn into anti-life, the dark at the end of everything, the end of universes, gods, worlds, everything.


This power I believe would be a credible threat to Ghost Rider. Ghost Rider does have some ability to manipulate this concept, the beast of judgement, the death of all


However Chronozon's Anti-Life Form is on a scale beyond the universal scale Ghost Rider has shown so while he may be able to control Chronozon, it is a viable threat.

Asmodeus would likely be superior to even this, for he served as partner to Beezlebub in their attempt to reclaim Hell in Lucifer's name, while Chronozon was a subordinate to Beezlebub.

Similar, if not superior in rank to Asmodel is Lilith, Mother of Atrocities and Lord of Heretics who appears to be second in command to Neron.



She is the lord of all dark magic and was able to recall all dark magic and all creatures of infernal origin like vampires, werewolves, ghouls, dark alter egos, etc. to serve Neron's war effort



However Ghost Rider is extremely resistant to magic, with Zarathos spirit being able to override the magic of the strongest wizards in the world


and who claimed to be immune even to the magical arsenal of Dr. Strange, master of all magic (black magic included)


Lilith is strong enough to physically tear the flesh from Belial's face with her teeth suggesting she's physically strong enough to be a credible threat to Ghost Rider


It's unclear if this Lilith is the same as the Lilith in Lucifer, first woman (the wiki lists them as the same), but if so Lilith is wise enough that even Lucifer respects her counsel


and can travel between the worlds, even to the void beyond creation


though I don't believe she could use this for BFR as it seems to take an extended period, and Ghost Rider can create portals to the afterlife at will


The Demons Aym and Createis are likely of power relevant to Ghost Rider as while nothing is known about them, they were invoked to give Sabbac power alongside extremely powerful demons such as Beezlebub, Belilal, Asmodeus, and "Satan"



However now we move into the real big names; the triumverate members, the lords of Hell. First there's the half-demon Lady Blaze part of the unofficial fifth triumverate that attempted to usurp Hell from Neron with her brother Satanus. 

Lady Blaze is for a Triumverate member not hugely powerful, only about as strong as the demons mentioned above. She is strong enough to have considerable power to a rookie Dr. Fate


which is actually pretty impressive as Dr. Fate even as a rookie has to have the power to battle the Lords of Chaos. She was able to contend with her father the Wizard Shazam and was a threat to the Rock of Eternity



The Rock of Eternity being the Empyrean point of the multiverse whose power could seal even the strongest lord of order Mordru


However Lady Blaze does not focus on raw power. Blaze is the ultimate temptress, holding full sway in her own domain with those who stay there being drained of their power and eventually falling under her control


She is a seductress and her kiss condemns one to her domain forever


Blaze's domain draining Johnny of power would likely be a signifignat threat so long as he's there as power-draining tends to work against Ghost Rider.

Lady Blaze has more abilities. She can distort space and reality


She once almost encompassed the physical world, absorbing it into her domain where she commands reality


Lady Blaze might use that to try and coerce and threaten Ghost Rider by threatening the physical realm. However Ghost Rider could counter with at least equal, possibly higher spatial manipulation as he has strong enough spatial manipulation to be able to drop the entire afterlife upon the universe and could consequently hold back her realm from engulfing the physical world.


Lady Blaze, as her name suggests, can control the Hellfire, using it as a weapon and even conjuring it in the mortal realm from Hell to create a sunlight to burn a vampire



However this would be counterproductive to use against the Ghost Rider as everything about him down to his coat are immune to hellfire


and he can absorb Hellfire from his surroundings to make himself stronger, meaning this attack would only make him stronger if Blaze tried to use it


If anything this may help initially counter Blaze's domain draining GR of power since he can draw power from the Hellfire within, although Blaze can warp the surroundings if she realizes that's happening.

Blaze was able to seal off a building from reality and could unseal her three half-brothers (Sin, Terror, and Wickedness) from the Rock of Eternity



However Ghost Rider was able to resist the sealing power of Dr. Strange far above Blaze's feats


Blaze's sorcery can distort even the senses of Superman


However Johnny doesn't just rely on the 5 senses of human enhanced but he has a sixth spirit sense


which would allow him to easily sense the cosmic evil of Blaze just as it allowed him to sense and travel to Adam who was on the other side of the world


and was able to tell he was in the Sanctum Sanctorum despite Strange projecting a dimension around them


Blaze can summon the darkness within someone to envelop and contain them, even working on the pure Superman


However this would not work on Ghost Rider as he is constantly enveloped in Hellfire, even being able to summon it as Johnny, which burns away enchantments and can hit the spiritual



meaning it should just burn off the darkness layer.

Lady Blaze can forcefully fuse people, as she fused her demon army into one massive demon that was a threat to her brother


and was able to transmute a computer into a demonic crystal orb


However Ghost Rider's hellfire also allows him to resist the matter manipulation of people like the Skin Bender


Blaze was able to power-drain her brother Satanus


This might be dangerous although as mentioned earlier Ghost Rider's essence will burn her from within if she tries.

Blaze is also a manipulator as befitting her title as the ultimate temptress. She augments this with her cosmic awareness, there is little in Hell she and her brother are unaware off


and she can gaze into the other realms at will


She was even able to outwit everyone and become the Empress of Hell until the end of the Post-Crisis period.


Johnny probably can resist Blaze's typical temptations, as he was able to defeat the deceptions of the Marvel Devil.


Given that Blaze is attracted to pure souls hoping to tempt them, she has a tendency to flirt with superheroes


and Johnny is an attractive man with a pure soul he may actually be able to temporarilly ally with her.

I believe the demon Negal, ruler of Charn, is roughly equal to the Lady Blaze in raw power, performing similarly against an early Dr. Fate


Negal is the "devourer of souls"


This would likely not work against Ghost Rider as even Mephisto can not destroy the soul of a Spirit of Vengeance


Negal can attack someone by throwing human suffering at them forcing to experience the pure suffering extracted from human experience


this form of counciousness manipulation may or may not work on Ghost Rider depending on how close a power you think you need to resist to be able to withstand, but he has more than enough willpower to endure as even when dying, drained of all strength, blind, deaf, and barely able to move he was able to still keep going and defeat his enemy Centurious


Negal was also able to trap Dr. Fate in a Hell Dimension where he was attacked by zombie duplicates of the Justice Society of America, Fate's old friends


However Negal's powers only work on those who self-despise, and he can not can crush the Heroic Spirit, the Ideal


Negal has an even more broken power however, he can destroy the concept of a person, erasing them from every reality 


This would also be nullified by the Heroic Spirit or Ideal but if he targets someone who also is the concept of "Ghost Rider" but lacks the power of Johnny's ideal it would affect every "Ghost Rider." This requires some mild prep but if it goes through it should actually work on Ghost Rider. Johnny has resisted existence erasure before but nothing on the extent of multiversal conceptual erasure. Stopping this would basically require Ghost Rider recognizing Negal's threat before Negal does or at least before he does and can use his erasure on one of the lesser spirits of vengeance, which is not unlikely given Ghost Rider's way better information gathering abilities and Johnny's ability to summon them to him at will. 

For the sake of the record, Negal's powers and limits are kinda unclear. The storyline of Dr. Fate vs Negal was written by Steve Gerber for the first 7 of 8 issues. However he tragically passed before the eighth issue was written so there's 4 endings for the 8th issue, written by 4 different writers as different tributes to Gerber, any of which could be canon. The information about Negal erasing Fate on a multiversal scale and being unable to affect the heroic spirit or ideal comes from the second ending, which I'm assuming is one of four things that could have happened. 

Stronger than them is Etrigan of the Fourth Triumverate. You might be surprised to see Etrigan here, but the Etrigan normally seen interacting with Superman and Wonder Woman and the like are actually Etrigan's emanation not his Godhead. 

Etrigan the demon is a powerhouse who made all of Hell fear him as he traveled through it


and has fought Lobo on a numerous occasions who was the sealed beast that it took all of Hell to capture initially


cementing Etrigan as pretty clearly a top tier demon. This is consistent with Etrigan being the leader of Neron's forces in the Reign in Hell civil war


Truthfully as the two are compared a bit and because the feats seem roughly in the same range I was using Godhead Etrigan's power level as a reference for how strong Ghost Rider would be in terms of raw power.

If the two are indeed around the same strength level I think Ghost Rider would pretty clearly win a confrontation. Not only is he holy, Etrigan's weakness, but while Etrigan has a pretty good arsenal of abilities Johnny can do basically all the same things and better. It doesn't help that pretty much all of Etrigan's abilities are magic which Johnny's hellfire passive melts away


Etrigan can BFR enemies in spacetime



Not only can Ghost Rider resist, he could just come back via interdimensional portals and time travel



Etrigan has spirit manipulation


Johnny's chains however can easily hit spirits that Etrigan set upon him


Etrigan also needs to return to the fires of Hell to recharge so it's very possible that Ghost Rider could drain the hellfire from Etrigan in order to depower him. There's also the small little point that Johnny and Zarathos are actually working together while Jason Blood and Etrigan do not get along and Ghost Rider could use his mind manipulation to increase the mental conflict between them.

A demon of roughly similar strength to Etrigan is his old enemy Baal-Satyr, the two implied to be somewhat relative


Baal-Satyr is an ethereal demon, a prince of darkness. I don't know if this means he would become conceptually intangible in Hell


Baal-Satyr can control mist and can use it choke people as he tried to do to Wonder Woman


However Ghost Rider can control smoke and mist and should likely be able to control him in his ethereal state


Moreover Baal-Satyr is weak to water which dissolves him


Ghost Rider as a master of all the elements could just hit Baal-Satyr with a water attack when he learns of this


Stronger than Etrigan are Belial, prince of deceit, of the Third Triumverate and Ran Va Daath, the serpent queen, of the Fourth Triumverate, Etrigan's father and mother. 

Belial and Ran Va Daarth are consistently about equal, the two having warred against each other many times



Belial is strong enough to battle his son while Etrigan was wearing the Crown of Thorns that made Jason Blood equal to Etrigan



which could mean Belial and Ran Va Daath are about twice as strong as Godhead Etrigan, and in this case around twice Ghost Rider's strength.

Not much is known about Ran Va Daath but she was able to create sleeping draughts


However even if they were able to get that in Ghost Rider's body, the hellfire naturally coursing in his blood would simply undo its magic passively


More is known about Belial, eldest son of Trigon, prince of deceit. He is one of the most learned Demons of Hell who uses intellect and dark magic to make up for his lack of raw power compared to other Lords of Hell


He was able to bestow evil wisdom upon Sabbac to counter Shazam's wisdom of Solomon


Belial is lord of the darkflame


a flame that required Raven to use her soul self to protect the Titans from. 


Johnny's Hellfire should easily be able to clash with and block the Ebonflame as it resides on the astral plane naturally

Belial also created a Hell Zone on Earth that overtime massively amped his power, making him the strongest demon in Hell and a threat to all existence.


While the Hell Zone extended over the entirety of Death Valley, Ghost Rider could purify it if need be as his spiritual manipulation has extended over the entire nation of Nicaragua before


Belial has another trait that makes him particularly hard to kill, that being his higher dimensional nature that allows him to and his brothers to exist in an omni-dimensional space where millions of universes collided through them.


While Johnny can affect higher dimensional beings, this may make it hard to affect Belial in a raw power way, especially coupled with his family's seeming totally immunity to pain, however he actually has an ideal way to exploit Belial. Belial was defeated by the Phantom Stranger simply giving him the pieces of silver the Phantom Stranger always carries which crushed Belial in his heart just from the sheer guilt and suffering and sorrow they carried


Ghost Rider's famous Penance Stare doesn't just make one feel the physical pain one has inflicted but also the emotional and mental pains; the sorrow and guilt and has killed beings who was immune to pain



If Ghost Rider used the Penance Stare on Belial I don't think it would destroy him from physical agony but would tear his psyche to shreds from the infinite treacheries the Prince of Deceit has wrought whose sorrow he would be forced to bear all at once.

Stronger still than their family is the silent watchmen of the infinite pit, called Apollyon the destroyer, known more commonly as Abaddon, fallen Angel of the Abyss, of the fourth Triumverate. His eternal vigilance and guardianship of the abyss is moved neither by force nor wit


Ran Va Daarth warns Etrigan of Abaddon, and Belial commends Etrigan for allying with a power like him in his attempt to usurp the Triumverate of Hell.



Abaddon is known for attacking by summoning the infinite hoards of horrific demon bugs capable of quickly overwhelming and threatening Etrigan


Ghost Rider actually has the very specific ability to manipulate demonic insects and so could simply will them away from him


Which brings up Beelzebub, lord of flies, of the Second and Third Triumverates. Beelzebub is a demon powerful enough that he believed Etrigan alone was no threat to him, and required Etrigan and Abaddon to work together to defeat him



Beelzebub believed he and Asmodeus could take over Hell in Lucifer's name


Beelzebub is noted to have position due to his immense age giving him immense political influence, for he has existed since death began and shall likely persist to the end of the universe, yet he also boasts immense power and intellect for a demon as well. 

Beelzebub has even claimed that he is stronger than the Roman Pantheon


If he's speaking truthfully, which he may not be, this is an absolutely immense feat as Jupiter along with Odin and Zeus split the power of the Source


Beelzebub has dominion over Death and Decomposition, born at the same time as Death and existing until the end of time itself. 


While Beelzebub's death manipulation should pretty easily scale to his subordinate Chronozon who can change into Anti-Life, I don't think it would work on Ghost Rider. Beelzebub's death manipulation seems to be about organic death, decay, decontamination. Spirits of Vengeance like Ghost Rider are immortal ageless entities that only God is stated to be able to kill and who as mentioned earlier can control death.



Beezlebub was able to grant black magic that could rust away an opposing armies weapons


so Beezlebub might try to rust away Ghost Rider's weapons and vehicle but this would also not work as Ghost Rider infuses his equipment with Hellfire that would burn away the black magic



Beelzebub was able to create a seal on his territority that required Etrigan and Abaddon to join power to break


In a fight with Beelzebub and other demons this might be a problem, creating a forcefield GR would have trouble breaking that said one on one Ghost Rider has literally infinite stamina and could outlast Beelzebub's seal and if Ghost Rider really needed to get through it he could create at least 4 copies of himself out of Hellfire with his exact stats to destroy it together



Beezlebub in particular seems to like swarm in numbers, summoning massive hoards of demon flies to devour opponents and whose plans involve spreading evil through the mortal realm via having demons infiltrate human society and create demon-human hybrids that Beelzebub can use for his purposes like a fly laying its eggs in decaying organic material



Ghost Rider can counter this not really with one ability but through a combination of several partial counters. As mentioned above he can create up to four copies of himself, and as the leader of the Spirits of Vengeance can summon an army of them himself


He can use energy or hellfire in an omnidirectional wave 




which can hit large number of Beezlebub's minions or use his chains to keep them at bay


Beezlebub's half-demon hoard are also mortal meaning the Divine Tongue should work on them, an ancient language that compel the minds of mortals, including a whole city


Beelzebub has a danger sense, much like a fly


This would be mildly annoying as Beelzebub would pretty much immediately know the threat posed by the Ghost Rider but basically just means Beelzebub would be prepared for a dangerous threat.

Beelzebub could also for some reason grant Sabbac fire powers.


As mentioned before this wouldn't really do anything to Ghost Rider.

An interesting denizen of Hell is Baal. In DC Gods, even dark gods and Demons are completely distinct entities. Demons are denizens of the conceptual afterlife realm of Hell warping it and it warping them into sharing an infernal state. Gods on the other hand are personifications of forces of nature born in the dreaming and go to the dreaming again to die. Baal is an entity that is both a God and a Demon, one of the old gods lost to Hell warped by its nature and never reaching the Dreaming to die.

As gods power depends on their followers, Baal is normally not very powerful for a demon but after a particular ritual was done, Baal temporarily regained his full power that allowed him to tank Etrigan's power and claimed nothing in Earth, Heaven or Hell could stop him


Baal can not be harmed normally even then, as Baal's flesh hides his true divine essence, intangible even in the conceptual realm


This would make Baal at his peak vastly difficult for Ghost Rider to beat normally. Baal is a storm god, the thundering destroyer who attacks with divine lightning



Ghost Rider actually would be able to counter this as he battled the Huntsman who had the power of the Greco-Roman Pantheon and gained the ability to control the divine lightning

meaning that Ghost Rider may able to simply take Baal's lightning and fire it back at him in an almost identical fashion. This may still not be able to affect Baal's true self but Baal has a particular weakness. Baal is one of the old gods and is weakened and can be physically beaten in the presence of modern technology made of iron.


But it's not like Ghost Rider takes modern technology around with him everywh...


oh, right.

Given Baal's tendency to focus only on what's right in front of him, and Ghost Rider's ability to control the Hellcycle with his mind he could appear before Baal and while he's distracted simply command the Hellcycle to slice through Baal from behind.


Beyond even Baal are the infinitely power demons on the level of the Spectre and whose powers can control the entirety of the infinite conceptual realm of Hell. First of those is Azmodeus, Dread Demon of ultimate evil, Spectre's opposite



Azmodeus is a reality-warper to match the Spectre and in their battle not just reality, but dreams, possibility itself was threatened



While Ghost Rider can likely still hurt Azmodeus via Azmodeus' holy weakness Ghost Rider would need to be extremely careful as a single strike from Azmodeus would be a threat to Ghost Rider.

Azmodeus was able to drain away the energy of The Spectre and seal him inside Jim Corrigan


However this seal could be released by powerful mystic energy


As Johnny is the focal point of all Magic in the Marvel Universe, his passive presence may be enough to break Zarathos free if Azmodeus tried to seal Zarathos inside Johnny in a similar fashion.


Azmodeus was able to construct metaphysical bullets made of Spectre's own doubt to harm him


However Johnny Blaze is generally a confident man full of hope who is not prone to self-doubt and which Azmodeus would unlikely be able to use his own emotions against him.

Azmodeus regularly possesses mortals, acting as a dark mirror to Spectre's union with a mortal soul


Ghost Rider can sense demonic presences however


and can use his exorcism powers, even through punching, to force Azmodeus out into the open


Azmodeus regularly deals by taking peoples shadows, parts of their soul


Even by himself Johnny was able to fight an entire clan of shadow-manipulating ninjas.


Azmodeus was able to bind The Spectre in chains of fire that even he could not escape when the Spectre was distracted


However while Ghost Rider might not be able to break the chains, even with his torso and legs constrained he can still use the Penance Stare, and in fact if Azmodeus succeeds in binding Ghost Rider, he likely would believe he's succeeded giving Ghost Rider a particularly good chance to use it


particularly because Azmodeus is bound by his pride and hatred.


Azmodeus can summon the spirits of hatred to battle


Ghost Rider could counter with his aforementioned spiritual manipulation or by summoning the other spirits of vengeance. Ghost Rider's spiritual manipulation can wipe clean ones sins, ridding one of all hatred along with other emotions destroying the spirits of hatred


Azmodeus carries no real power himself, his power is entirely the power of the souls he collected and freeing them would defeat Azmodeus


That said I don't know if Ghost Rider has strong enough soul manipulation to do this quickly. A sliver of Zarathos rib once became one of the most powerful anti-soul weapons in the Marvel Universe



but it's a bit hard to compare. In their first confrontation, Spectre defeated Azmodeus by draining him of all his energy and BFR-ing to a non-space, non-time where he would be unable to gather energy from anything.


Something Ghost Rider may be able to replicate via draining Azmodeus of his energy and sealing him in a dimensional rift




Azmodeus also has another interesting weakness Ghost Rider could manipulate. When Spectre battled Azmodeus, Madame Xanadu assisted by repeatedly summoning Azmodeus to the physical realm, splitting Azmodeus attention into two places at once so he could not focus.


If Ghost Rider used clones to fight Azmodeus directly and repeatedly summon him into one of the mortal universes, he could perform similarly


Vastly stronger than Azmodeus is Shathan, Dictator of Dis (Capital of Hell), whom Azmodeus is naught but a familiar off


Shathan is the Dictator of Dis, a city that serves as capital of Hell, a metaphysical universe onto itself, a nether universe formed as the inverse of the Big Bang, where he is supreme.




Even outside his domain, Shathan is equal to Spectre


Shathan would be an immense power and if Shathan drew Ghost Rider into Dis, I think he would be able to quickly defeat Ghost Rider via reality-warping. He could try to do this via his metaphysical magnetism which can draw someone to a metaphysical realm of his choosing


but while anywhere in conventional spacetime is unsafe from Shathan's supernatural magnetism, the same can't be said of the other metaphysical realms. In particular the Dreaming seems particularly difficult for the Demons to gain access too, and Ghost Rider could use the Hellcycle to drive into the dreaming to be avoid being sucked into Dis.


Shathan can try to use his Trans-Time Telepathy to affect Ghost Rider before he does so, or even affect Johnny before he becomes the Ghost Rider


however spirits of vengeance are acausal beings unaffected by changes to the past.


Shathan is a particularly hard enemy to beat as he is said to exist so long as belief in him does, and even when Spectre sent him into the Big Bang and Shathan had his essence spread out across the universe, he was able to reform eventually



However Ghost Rider actually has the perfect counter to Shathan. The way Spectre eventually defeated Shathan was by forcing him to feel all the pain he had inflicted upon others.


....I believe Ghost Rider can do this as well 😋


So long as Shathan doesn't simply pull Ghost Rider into Dis and wipe him from existence, Ghost Rider's penance stare should one-shot the Dictator of Dis just as Spectre was able to with an identical attack type.

Vastly stronger than Shathan is Lord Satanus, brother of Lady Blaze, members of the unofficial fifth triumverate who usurped Hell from Neron. Satanus is so immensely powerful that upon killing Neron, Satanus remade all of Hell in his image


The conceptual reality of Hell consists of infinite Hells, in infinite realities of which the prior mentioned Dis is only a single one. Satanus exists in all of them.


Satanus has a lot of feats of cosmic awareness to the point that nothing in Hell escapes the gaze of Blaze and Satanus and it is implied he considers himself omniscient in his realm



He could also sense general information about people even from other dimensions, suggesting he would quickly know about the Ghost Rider


Ghost Rider can somewhat do the same as he can detect he's being observed from another dimension


and can sense information about a person's history by looking at them


that said Satanus' cosmic awareness does seem a bit stronger.

Satanus would likely after gaining information on Ghost Rider's physiology would try to channel holy energy through a Church Bell to create a holy sonic attack like he did against Blaze's demon, something he can do as a half-demon


This is technically a weakness of Ghost Rider although something he could probably withstand as he has withstood stronger holy attacks before such as being impaled by a giant holy sword



as such Ghost Rider would probably be able to endure the attack though it would do some damage. 

Satanus created a magical disease called DMN that turned humans into demons and later reversed the effects to turn the demons of Hell into humans, removing Neron's power base and giving him the advantage in their fight.



Obviously the reversed form wouldn't do anything to Ghost Rider as he's not a demon and the former would only work on Johnny if he was untransformed if at all, and might not work even then.

Satanus was able to casually shatter an attacker's sanity without even moving


However Ghost Rider was able to fight Madness in his own Insanity Realm and so this likely would not work


He was able to make Adversary simply disappear before bringing him back


However Ghost Rider was able to resist the oblivion manipulation of Deathurge and so could avoid being erased


Satanus can manipulate minds although rather than the mental domination some Demons do, Satanus puts very subtle subconcious thoughts in the minds of others through telepathy so as to make the target think they came up with an idea he wanted them to think


While this arguably wouldn't be resisted by normal mental resistance, Johnny has resisted the thought-altering song of the Sirens before


plus in general I don't think this type of manipulation would work very well against an enemy with two minds.

Along with his telepathy, Satanus has telekinesis


Ghost Rider can counter with his own telekinesis that honestly just has better feats like impaling the Devil


Satanus can dimensionally BFR, even sending a building through dimensions into a neutral battle zone


As mentioned before Ghost Rider can pretty easily resist BFR and can travel through dimensions himself. 

Satanus can create dark chains to bind the spirit of his opponent


This is actually just like a dark equivalent to Ghost Rider's own spiritual chains


I have to imagine that this is a neutral point as both could counter each others spirit chains. That said if these are the same as Ghost Rider's usual chains he definitely has a lot more control over them.


Satanus can create an illusion of never-ending enemies to endlessly distract his enemies



However not only does Ghost Rider have enhanced senses his hellfire burns away illusions


Lord Satanus was able to absorb the soul of Metropolis, becoming it and spiritually corrupting the entire city



Superman's purity was holding that darkness back but only for a small section and that was the extremely high moral purity of Superman's soul


This level of soul absorption, corruption, and spiritual manipulation would probably be some level of threat although given his exorcism, soul and spiritual manipulation I think Ghost Rider would be able to at least somewhat counter it.

Lord Satanus also has his own realm, the Earth's dark realm where he is even stronger


but unlike Shathan he doesn't really have a good way of getting Ghost Rider into that realm outside of just blasting him there and if he gets a clean attack in like that it doesn't really matter. I imagine he could drag an innocent civilian Ghost Rider cares about in to lure him there but I don't imagine Satanus would really want to do that if he doesn't have too, as it would probably make him seem weak to have to drag an enemy into his own dimension. Satanus would most likely want to just challenge Ghost Rider directly. Plus there are ways Ghost Rider could counter tactically with sending in clones. Ghost Rider seems to be a tactically superior fighter to Satanus such as immediatly figuring out a way around Girth's passive hax


Lord Satanus and Lady Blaze during the Reign in Hell story arc strove to take power from the demon Neron after he became Emperor of Hell after the fall of the fourth triumverate, the three forming the unofficial fifth triumverate. Neron, he whose name is translated from the number 666, was a demon that required both Blaze and Satanus to battle. He's strong enough in raw power that even when Blaze gave Satanus her power, Neron was winning against Satanus without using his full power.


While Neron controlled Hell, the provinces of Hell were Neron's will given form and function, which makes sense as when Satanus beat Hell he remade Hell in his image


Neron the Howling One has an immense amount of feats and powers, including most of the abilities mentioned prior. 

Neron is the darkness of man's mind given breathe and form


While Ghost Rider can fight conceptual enemies, if Johnny harbors any darkness within his mind then to fight Neron becomes a fruitless battle as Neron would exist as part of Johnny's own darkness. It's unclear if having a pure soul grants resistance to this.

Neron is invisible to all those except who he chooses, including technology


However not only can Ghost Rider use mystical senses to detect him but he can see invisible things



Neron has immersion and simply appeared in a television


Ghost Rider might be able to come back from immersion if he can portal from the Dreaming to the mundane realm but this is probably a threat to him.

Neron erased Deadman's memories of him


Ghost Rider would be able to tank this as he resisted the mental powers of Dr. Doom which includes memory manipulation


Neron was able to defuse Jim Corrigan and The Spectre


This would be a pretty big threat. Ghost Rider can mess around fighting demons like Astaroth but against Neron any moment of weakness is a major threat.

Neron has the ability to create false copies of things, like the Moon, and changes to it effect the original like a voodoo doll


This could be a pretty annoying ability for Ghost Rider to deal with. That said voodoo is presumably one of the arts of mysticism that Dr. Strange has mastered that Ghost Rider can resist so he may be able to resist it.

It's a plot point in Reign in Hell that Satanus' army were defeating Neron's army because they had free will, something Neron can take and give at will.


This is a pretty insane feat of mental-conceptual manipulation as he can control his literally infinite minions at once.

However he was not able to use this to control his opposition, presumably because Satanus had given them the power of Hope that let Superman escape when Neron had trapped him in a void ridding him of all memories, personality, and feelings.


Because of this I think Ghost Rider could be able to resist Neron's mind manipulation and BFR techniques as Johnny is propelled by the power of hope, saying he's not afraid of anything anymore because he's the kid of a hick carney ending up tied to the saddle of a monster and gone up against the worst, where even the thought of being damned does not hurt his soul anymore


This may even given Johnny the ability to burn Neron away. Neron is unable to resist making a deal but a soul given truly altruistically like Shazam gave to save the Justice League burns him, a soul willing to believe in the good of a world that seemed to be nothing but corrupt


This fits Johnny's character to a t, the person who would willingly consign himself to Hell to save just one person from going to Hell, who was willing to believe in the seemingly insane spirit of vengeance Zarathos


Neron would be an overbearing force to go up for the Ghost Rider against with infinite power and hax but Neron represents the cynical totalitarian bleak world that Ghost Rider irreverently spits in the face off. It's very in-character for Neron, not used to being actually threatened and focused on capturing pure souls, to want to make a deal for Johnny's soul but Johnny to give it altruistically to save others, burning Neron away. 

So of the Demons that would actually try to stop Johnny the last to mention are the first, second, and third of the fallen. Despite arguably being stronger then Neron, the second and third are much less threats.

The first, second, and third of the Fallen are primordial demons, the literal first three to fall, from the Hellblazer series, enemies of John Constantine and collectively the first triumverate. They interact with the other demons pretty rarely meaning scaling them is a bit tricky. The three seem to be roughly as strong as each other, though as the First points out later they have different weaknesses


The three took back control of Hell when Lucifer abdicated, and while Neron is subject to the laws of Hell


the First of the Fallen is very clearly not which may suggest he's stronger


Admittingly it's pretty vague and you could put them anywhere in this power ranking but they should be at least somewhere in the list mentioned as they were able to form a Triumverate taking over Hell requiring some level of power.

The third of the fallen has the least information about it, it is the ever-shifting lord of a billion faces, a bunch of goo that constantly shifts forms to appear as it pleases


The Third doesn't really use this for stealth and even if it did it would be pretty easy for Ghost Rider to see right through it. The Third only really has one notable ability and to be fair it's a pretty good one. The Third's true form seen in limbo is nothingness


which presumably makes it quite difficult to kill since how do you kill nothing? How do you erase nothing or even really effect it?

I do think Ghost Rider's soul manipulation would probably work. Nothingness doesn't have a soul but his soul manipulation worked on Mephisto's Soulless ones who also don't have souls


That's really it for the Third.

The Second of the Fallen has more info mostly because supplementary material strongly implies the second is also Azazel of the Second Triumverate.



Azazel is the abomination, the demon lord of chaos and primordial darkness, second in infernal politics after Lucifer, speaking to his influence.

Azazel used to be the angel Azazel the Sin-Eater who consumed the sins of humanity so they would remain in perfect state. But as Azazel ate he grew hungrier and fell when he began to tempt humanity to sin so he could eat their sins


Azazel as a demon kept his conceptual spiritual consumption. He can engulf the souls of even conceptual souls in the afterlife and demons godheads by engulfing them in his darkness, consuming them,



This power is so potent he believed he could consume the soul of Dream of the Endless, something Dream agreed was a possibility outside the Heart of the Dreaming.



Ghost Rider can avoid this by keeping at range from Azazel but it is a threat, if Azazel engulfs Ghost Rider he would be able to consume Johnny and Zarathos' souls.

Azazel has another really strong ability. When Azazel is killed he can pass everything about him unto the person that killed him, meaning to kill Azazel is to BECOME Azazel.


Fortunately there's a way around this. Both the First of the Fallen and Dream beat Azazel by sealing him, and the First also beat the Third this way, sealing him stating he could do this because they, unlike him, were "Devils" and weak in ways he was not.



Ghost Rider more recently got the ability "Damnation Stare" where the wicked are sealed in the 9th Circle of Hell eternally


With this Ghost Rider could likely beat both the Second and the Third at once.

The First of the Fallen is more well known. He is known by many names: The Adversary, The Serpent in the Garden, Old Nick, but perhaps most as....Satan


Satan has, while probably not as powerful an arsenal as someone like Neron, his old bag of tricks.

He is able to kill powerful entities with just a touch


However Ghost Rider was able to tank the very similar power of Deathstalker


was able to reverse age Nergal the demon into a mortal, reverting him 10,000 years in a second


Zarathos is an ageless spirit from before the time of man (millions of years)


so even if it worked, which is fairly unlikely, it would take over 8 minutes to even begin to threaten Zarathos' existence.

Satan was able to force a man to kill himself


As mentioned earlier, Ghost Rider resisted the suicide aura of Wallow


Satan can casually enter dreams and hallucinations



Ghost Rider can do the same so it's a neutral point.


Satan was able to use immersion, putting Constantine in tv shows, and was able to use city-scale corruption similar to Neron and Satanus respectively



As mentioned in those sections earlier, Ghost Rider might be able to counter those abilities but they're credible threats to him.

And of course Lucifer is far above all this nonsense. Lucifer at the beginning of time shaped the Cosmos just as he did to his own creation, creating all these powers


along with every other form of power in creation. If Lucifer takes either side, that side wins. That said he is most likely to not care one way or the other.

The threats that DC Hell would post to Ghost Rider are thus
  • Around two dozen demons of some threat of raw power ranging from could probably hurt slightly to can one-shot
  • Many superintelligent tricksters
  • Asteroth and Neron seperating Johnny from Zarathos
  • Power-Draining (particularly Lady Blaze's realm doing so, as if a character does so, their essence would be burned containing Ghost Rider's energy)
  • Chronozon turning into Anti-Life
  • Negal with prep time erasing the concept of Ghost Rider from the multiverse
  • Shathan using metaphysical magnetism to draw Ghost Rider into Dis
  • Satanus channeling holy energy into an attack
  • Satanus, Neron, and Satan's vast spiritual corruption
  • Neron existing as the darkness of Johnny's human mind
  • Neron and Satan's immersion
  • Azazel's conceptual soul consumption
While that sounds like an intimidating list, considering the sheer breadth and extent of Hell and it's denizens, it's actually a rather small list, and every single thing on the list Ghost Rider either possibly has a counter to, or definitely has a partial counter to.

Beyond that, Ghost Rider has a number of individual advantages against the DC Demons in general. First of all, while these demons would be an unstoppable threat to him attacking at once, demons don't generally cooperate very well. They are constantly warring with themselves


Ghost Rider may even be able to get some of them to join his side given his own relatively high level of power and hax. There is the problem that Ghost Rider is technically part Angel, and demons hate being commanded by angels


Angels are the second most hated thing of demons. That said, the thing they hate most? Each other. Demons would rather get screwed by archangels than raise a toast to their rivals


They don't need to like Ghost Rider to like him more than his enemies. Blaze and Satanus would probably very much like to ally with Ghost Rider just as they wanted to with Superman. When two extremely powerful demons are around each other in DC they either conspire and scheme to cause the downfall of each other or just fight openly. Of the threats Ghost Rider might come across, he's unlikely to have to fight more than 2 at a time, and even then they'd probably be wondering the whole time if it would not be easier to ally with Ghost Rider and double-cross their demonic partner.

Another thing Ghost Rider might have going for him, and I'm not sure if this works but if it does it would be an absolute immense advantage, would be the fact that upon becoming King of Hell, Ghost Rider gained the ability to raise the Dead of Hell to serve him


Some of the most powerful beings in Hell including Triumverate members like the Third of the Fallen, Neron, Satanus, and Belial have all died so it's possible he could just resurrect them to serve him. I don't think this would work as he got it on account of his authority over Hell which he wouldn't have here and also that would require them to be dead already when Ghost Rider attacks, but you know it's a pretty big game-changer if he can use it even if it "just" means summoning the Old Gods like Baal who have died in Hell.

Another general advantage of Ghost Rider is while these demons are immensely powerful to the point of being overpowering while in Hell, that is basically their domain. It's a recurring element that DC cosmic entities power is dependent on the area they're in. Hypothetically any demon can make an emanation in any of the physical realms but these emanations are vastly weaker than then their Godhead because they're higher-dimensional conceptual entities being forced to interact in fragile flesh forms. For instance Lord Satanus in the Post-Crisis universe was physically around the power level of Superman which while great is not the level of Ghost Rider.

The Ghost Rider is the bond between the spirit and the man and he is no weaker when he rides on Earth than he is when he rides through Hell. In a fight against the denizens of Hell, using portals Ghost Rider could manuever through the mortal realms forcing the demons to vastly weaken themselves to pursue or give him the chance to reappear and flank from any angle he wishes. Demons also have greater difficulty reaching the conceptual DC realms farthest from Hell, with the ultimate farthest being, obviously, Heaven. Ghost Rider however is technically an angel, if one from a different Heaven, and his way would not be barred from Heaven should he wish to use it as a base or to manuever through it to strike into Hell.

However Ghost Rider has two more big advantages connected to each other that collectively make up Hell's biggest weakness. Hell in DC is not a physical dimension or set of dimensions as it is in Marvel, it is a state of mind, a conceptual-psychological plane. This is partly why its beings are so strong, but also where all their vulnerabilities lie.

Demons in DC are more then monsters, they are abstractions that reside in the great collective unconciousness of all, including that of humanity. Ghost Rider has the ability to enter the collective unconsciousness of humanity


This is one of the most powerful abilities in DC Comics as affecting the collective unconsciousness affects the conceptual nature of reality since the beginning of time. 1,000 humans consciousness together could reality-warp the universe to change the universe from the beginning of time



several alien races and beings have tried to usurp the power of the collective unconsciousness to gain control of existence, and it's considered one of the seven forces Perpetua created to govern the multiverse on the same level of importance as the sphere of the gods and the dimensional superstructure.


Particularly relevant for this matchup, the sorceress Raven was able to use the collective unconsciousness to seal away Trigon, one of the most powerful demons in existence (who resides outside Hell)


Ghost Rider's power is strong enough to fight and kill Null the Living Darkness


Null himself being the collective unconcious of the ancient powerful S'raphh race


If Ghost Rider can interact with the collective unconsciousness then if the spirit of vengeance were to enter the conceptual realm of Hell it's possible he could utilize the collective vengenance existing in the collective unconsciousness of mankind since the dawn of time to completely seal away or warp anyone he comes across and warp the very laws of Hell.

This would probably work on all the demons save First of the Fallen who its implied can't be sealed because he's not truly a "devil" is immune to the laws of Hell and Lucifer by scaling.

The other related advantage Ghost Rider has is that his very heroic hopeful spirit would empower the denizens of Hell under him. While demons have no particular love for hope as a concept, the damned themselves are a different story. It's a major plot point in the Reign in Hell storyline that Satanus and Blaze invigorated hope among the Damned, hope of more than eternal punishment.




Giving hope back to the damned restored them, gave them their memories and their identities a sensation they described as liking seeing color again. A power that made them a threat to a Neron.



The power of demons is the power they have derived from souls of others; it is their food and currency, their potency. But the unspoken principum of Hell, the ultimate governing law no demon can ever speak is revealed in the last two pages of Reign of Hell to be "You can leave whenever you want."

The damned are only damned because they have no hope, not realizing the power is held within their collective unconscious. This is the demons biggest weakness, hope, a thing that Dream of the Endless could propose and Chronozon knew of nothing that could beat it. Something not even Negal could erase or break. Something that allowed Superman break free from Neron's endless illusions and ultimate void. Something that can allow the damned to take back all the power of the demons and overthrow Hell, turning it upside down. 

Johnny Blaze is a character defined by an irreverent hope. A hope that led him to make a deal with the Devil to fight fate despite his fear


Johnny is known for battling against the odds and overcoming without losing hope


In the 2018 storyline "Damnation" Johnny's plan when sent to Hell first involved invigorating the hope against Mephisto, the lord of Hell


a plan that in the DC Universe would have not just worked but given the damned a cosmic power amplification.

Johnny can be said to represent the defiant hope of Salvation in the face of Hell's damnation. Hell has never scared Johnny, he would face damnation and Hell without fear, which is what in the "Damnation" storyline allowed him to gain the title of the King of Hell.


This is essentially a stronger version of what Satanus did against Neron, one of the strongest Demons Hell has ever had.

So with all that said, could Ghost Rider take over DC Comics Hell? Well that's basically two questions.

"Can Ghost Rider solo all of DC Comics Hell's characters by himself?" The answer is no. Even without Lucifer, that's simply too many characters who are immense threats individually for him to do so. But that's not really a fair thing to ask, as that's a Hell that has never existed. Hell in DC is a dynamic place: demons die or are created, become sealed or are unsealed, lose power or gain it. And Hell is scarcely ever unified like that. 

A more reasonable form of the question is "Can Ghost Rider take over the Throne of Hell?" and while technically that depends when this happens, in almost all instances I would say the answer is yes. Etrigan has taken over the Throne of Hell twice now, and Ghost Rider is basically Godhead Etrigan, but with more versatile abilities, better ability to exploit Hell's weaknesses, and a lack of Etrigan's weaknesses. Lobo required all of Hell to chain up at one point in Hell's existence and Etrigan made himself feared throughout Hell, the two being rivals. Narratively Ghost Rider is on that level of "characters that would be majorly important in Hell."

There's numerous demons that could threaten him like Lady Blaze, Negal, and Azazel and characters that would be an immense highly difficult fight one on one like Satanus, Neron, and especially the First of the Fallen but Ghost Rider has a good chance against the former, and at least a fair one for the latter, and this is a scenario he doesn't need to fight on one, but can use allies and an army and the general nature of Hell to win.

Overall, yes I think most of the time, depending on when exactly it happens, Ghost Rider could take over DC Comics' Hell.