Monday, December 30, 2019

Can the Saint Seiya Multiverse defeat Darkseid


Saint Seiya is one of the most powerful anime/manga verses and the strongest shonen verse. 

Darkseid is arguably the central villain of the strongest series ever, DC Comics. Darkseid is the boundary I set for "strongest verse in fiction". Those that can beat him are the strongest verses in fiction and those that can't aren't.

Of my favorite series, DC Comics and Saint Seiya are the two strongest cosmologies. So, can Saint Seiya-verse defeat the big bad of DC Comics, Darkseid?



Beginning with the Saint Seiya-verse's power, the verse obviously runs a large gamut of power. Beginning with Saint Initiates Seiya was able to survive during training Eagle Marin smashing him into the ground during Chapter 1 of the original Saint Seiya described as being like a shooting star (comet) hitting the ground shaking the ground




Before Seiya creates a larger crater in the ground with his cosmo:

and later Pegasus Seiya in the same chapter created an even larger crater with one of his punches against Cassios 



These craters may not seem very large however Saints destroy the atoms of what they attack via the power of Cosmo



Destruction of the rock of such craters would take billions of tons of tnt, enough to destroy an island.

This is consistent with many other feats, for instance Cygnus Hyoga was able to crush a large portion of a glacier so solid that it had not thawed in millions of years





or being able to create a snowstorm even when such is impossible given the season with just his icy cosmo

And it is said that meteorite crashes and volcanic eruptions are the works of saints




A nameless Saint Intiate was able to use a nucleur power plant to make a massive chasm in the Earth



which was calced to be multi-continent level which was consistent with how the same reactor was going to destroy the Earth completely

yet his power was considered pitiful and not worthy of being a saint



The verse undergoes a massive upgrade with the Seventh Sense Users. Even on the lower scale of these are beings who can destroy stars as evideanced by the repeated quote across Saint Seiya: "With their fists they can crush the stars, with their feet they can split the ground, they are Athena's Saints!"

The elite of Athena's Saints, the Gold Saints who the other powerhouses of the verse are compared too in terms of potency are known for massively greater feats.

In the Gold Saints battle against the titaness Themis she dropped onto them the Braebus Talanton, a scale containing the sins of mankind, weighing more then the Celestial Firmament with it's countless stars that the Titan Atlas had to hold up as penance from Zeus before Taurus Aldebaran lifted it effortlessly

 

before casually destroying it with his Great Horn attack


This would be by neccesity a multi-stellar feat given it contains "countless" stars, likely low galactic just from having enough stellar masses to surpass that of small galaxies (a real celestial firmament would need to contain millions of stellar masses at least) and is possibly universe level since it was punishment for Atlas the titan to lift, and a "real" celestial firmament would contain the actual outer space and it's stars and galaxies.

Likewise Gold Saint Aries Mu in his battle with Titan Iapetus destroyed Iapetus universe with the ultimate attack of the Aries Saint

before creating his own universe 


yet Aries Mu is considered only a Mid Tier Gold Saint, with a high Tier Gold Saint like Gemini Saga being able being able to casually overpower a Mid Tier Gold Saint like Leo Aiolia despite Aiolia having his cloth and Saga not having so


yet to even fight the gods Thanatos and Hypnos, weaker then the Olympian Gods, Seiya had to raise his cosmo infinitely above where it was


Yet even 5 such beings, the God Saints and with the aid of the Olympian Goddess Athena could only just surpass the Heavenly Emperor Hades


Underworld Emperor maintained 3 realms considered the sizes of universes or greater; Hell, Elysium and Hyperdimension  



Showing that High Tier Gods like Hades are in the lower multiversal range. 

This is consistent with Hades with just a bit of his blood giving the Judge of the Underworld Rhadamanthys enough power to casually overpower the Athena Exclamation and slice it in half, the AE being equal in power to the original big bang. While the AE is equal to a Big Bang Rhadamanthys calls it nothing compared to the power of a god





This is before the same Rhadamanthys blocks with one hand the Zodiac Exclamation a power containing the power of all 12 Gold Saints superior to even the Athena Exclamation which uses the power of 3 Gold Saints





The Zodiac Exclamation is possibly even stronger then the collision of Two Athena Exclamation which would create a force vastly beyond the force of Two Athena Exclamation, each an attack with the power of the Big Bang


The strongest Gods are much stronger then even this, mostly based on scaling to Cronos (Kronos) who within minutes could destroy the past, present and future of every reality in the latest Episode G manga chapters. Unfortunately such has not yet been translated into English. Here is the correspoding Spanish scan


A translation which full disclosue is not mine, it was translated here.

And Chronos, completely seperate, the primordial is the embodiment of the infinite spacetime continuums:






For Darkseid there's the power of his true form, and the power of his many emanations in various different universes. There's too many emanations to really go over here, many of which are not even really relevant. 


I don't think this is particularly relevant for instance.

I'm going to be going over some of Darkseid's more well known and strong variations. For instance the DC Animated Film Universe version of Darkseid was able to overpower that universe's version of the JLA and it took all their powers together to overpower him






DCAMU Superman for comparison was suggested by DCAMU Wonder Woman to be able to pull the moon from the sky which DCAMU Batman took as a credible threat.

While Darkseid's DCEU emanation has not been seen yet, he should easily scale about his servant Stepphenwolf who was able to outmatch DCEU Wonder Woman and Aquaman (who were relative to Superman in strength) and survive strikes from DCEU Superman



The DCEU version of Superman was even weakened able to survive a force, while weakened, a force great enough to terraform the planet


was able to shift a tectonic plate


was called tougher then a planet and able to survive the energy of the Mother Box that could reshape planets by transmuting them


His emanation in the Injustice Universe battled against Superman, their battle threatening to destroy the Core of Apokalips

This version of Superman was able to survive blasts from Ganthet that could vaporize Yellow Lanterns


Yellow Power Rings being able to fly Mogo the Planet into the Sun

 



which would suggest this Darkseid would be planetary which is consistent with being relative to Zeus whose power was called celestial and omnipotent

There's the DCAU Darkseid of the Justice League series who was even stronger then the JLU Superman


yet the DCAU Superman in the canonical film "Justice League vs the Fatal Five" was able to survive the energy of the Emerald Eye of Ekrom which was going to destroy the entire sun

Animated GIF

Darkseid's Super Friends incarnation is often considered one of the most weak relative to the universe he inhabits since he rarely ever fights but he is superior to his son Kalibak who in the tie-in comics was able to battle against Doctor Fate, Red Tornado and Superman


Despite this in the episode "The Deadliest Game" The Super Friends including Superman were able to survive inside of a black hole which is consistent with Superman being able to move the Earth with enough force to counteract a beam pulling the Earth into the Sun at relativistic speeds, requiring stellar levels of energy 

Animated GIF

Probably the strongest emanation of Darkseid originating outside the comics is his Smallville version. In the finale of the series with just a small part of his power, he was able to send Apokalips, the size of Saturn, towards Earth at relativistic speeds and was superior to Superman who reversed that

 Animated GIF

Shifting a gas giant the size of Saturn at relativistic speeds would require large star level energies.

This version of Darkseid's full power capable of defeating even the Monitors which were able to condense an entire universe into a single point

 

His most famous emanation however is his Earth-1 incarnation that has interacted across numerous branches of the timeline and across time with the Mainline comic Justice League. The New 52 continuity was a temporary continuity created by Doctor Manhattan by taking 10 years out of the timeline. Yet even in this reverted early point Darkseid was more then capable of casually battling and overpowering the Justice League 


This version of the Justice League scales to feats like both Superman and Cyborg Superman being able to tank supernova


Superman surviving inside a Black Hole


Wonder Woman making Apollo tremble from her punches, Apollo being the sun itself


and the New 52 Emanation of Orion, Darkseid's son who in his clash with a Nth Metal Golem created shockwaves that tore apart a star system
 

This was before this Darkseid got massively stronger to battle the Earth-1 emanation of Anti-Monitor, getting strong enough to destroy whole universes

 

Bear in mind that at the time Anti-Monitor was consuming whole universes to prepare for his battle with Darkseid




The Anti-Monitor being a being that could stalemate The Monitor of Earth-1 for one million years


The Monitor being a being that with it's dying energy was able to create an inaccessible space containing multiple universes


Yet this Darkseid was able to match an Anti-Monitor that had absorbed universes for battle


This Darkseid in the far future of the Legion of Superheroes defeated Mordru and absorbed his power casually


yet will still weaker then his prime emanation 


This version of Mordru was able to overwhelm the entire JLA and JSA including Doctor Fate


Dr. Fate being a being that can shield against the power of the Lords of Order and Chaos who can create numerous universes in their interactions


which is consistent as when Desaad was impersonating Darkseid, he was able to scare the Lords of Chaos with just a yell


Along with numerous feats of fodderizing Universal level beings like Pre-Crisis Superman 



Though all of these emanations pale in comparison to the power of Darkseid's Godhead, the true Darkseid which emanates these all. The true Darkseid, his Godhead was so immense and powerful that his fall from the Platonic World of Gods was dragging all of space and all of time across infinite universes into a singularity where all is Darkseid






In terms of speed, Saint Seiya's speed starts somewhat modest but rises drastically and quickly. Even a completely new Bronze Saint can launch a punch that breaks the sound barrier


However Bronze Saints can rise far above this. During the Galaxian Wars Tournament at the start of the series Pegasus Seiya was able to throw a punch that hit Dragon Shiryu's weakpoint from several meters away

 

However Shiryu's weak point only appears for 1/1000ths of a second


Requiring Seiya to be moving at several thousand meters per second or easily double digit mach. This is consistent wtih Cygnus Hyoga traveled in an unspecified but presumably short time frame from Siberia Russia to Japan to battle the Galaxian Tournament. 

Superior to this, two assassins sent by Sanctuary on the level of Silver Saints were able to move as lightning

   

yet were blitzed by Pavo Mayura, also on the level of Silver Saints


showing that Silver Saint level entities, while they are all at least Mach 2 can reach speeds equal to or exceeding that of lightning, massively hypersonic.

However the minimum for a Gold Saint is much greater, the minimum speed for a Gold Saint being the speed of light itself!


yet this is only the minimum. A relative low tier seventh sense user, Hecate the witch of the Moon was sent 1,000 lightyears away by the Primordial Chronos and returned within minutes, requiring speeds millions of times the speed of light


During the sanctuary Arc, Andromeda Shun with his chain was able to send his chain to attack his unknown attacker, which crossed inter-dimensional space and seemingly the whole dimension of  Saga's attack "Another Dimension"


and in the same arc, Phoenix Ikk without his cloth moved in Shaka's illusion to the end of reality quickly past whole galaxies. While this was an illusion, it is notably that Ikki thought this was completely plausible and suggests this level of speed would not be impossible for him


Crossing the universe in such a short time or crossing an entire dimension, assuming it is it's own universe would be speeds in the high-end quadrillions of times the speed of light at least.

Any Low Tier Gold Saint would be able to match this speed as Ikki did this without even his cloth, though it may take some level of effort. Mid Tier Golds Saints like Capricorn Shura are even more impressive, as an example in the battle between Anti-Pope Aiolos from an alternate universe battling against Gemini Saga and Capriorn Shura, Shura was able to react to and block an attack coming from another universe instantly, a similar to greater feat then the above 


and with the power of the miracles Capricorn Shura was able to outspeed even the initial expansion of the Big Bang


The Big Bang caused the universe to expand from the size of a single proton to a tenth the size of a meter in the impossibly short timeframe of 10^-35 seconds, giving it a expansion speed of 10^34 meters per second, a speed over 32 SEPTILLION times the speed of light.

Yet a Gold Saint like Gemini Saga, even without his cloth could blitz a Mid Tier Gold Saint without even his cloth


In fact, someone like Ikki who scales to that speed value was so slow compared to Gold Saint Gemini Cain that Gemini Cain thought Ikki was only moving at the speed of sound


Yet to even battle the gods, Seiya had to raise his cosmo "infinitely" likely transcending this level of speed, as he raised his cosmo to the "ultimate degree"


Though even within the Gods there is a hierarchy of speed just as there is with power. While Seiya with his God Cloth could blitz Thanatos 

 

Hades could still blitz 5 God Saints at once


Finally as shown earlier, the Titan King Cronos could erase all of infinite spacetime in a finite time, requiring his attack speed and cosmo to be able to move infinitely, which along with the fact that he defeated his own father Primordial Chronos who is infinite spacetime suggests that the top tiers of Saint Seiya have infinite attack/reflex speed.

The emanations of Darkseid vary in terms of speed. The DCAFU Emanation of Darkseid was able to match the speed of the Flash


This version of the Flash was able to lightning-time

Animated GIF

The DCEU version of Darkseid should be superior to Steppenwolf who could keep up with the powerful members of the Justice League. This includes Superman whose heat vision transmits as a beam of light


DCEU Wonder Woman moved a signifigant fraction of this to protect Batman from Doomsday's heat vision


This is consistent with how the DCEU Flash blue-shifts which requires moving at speeds near lightspeed and with how Superman was able to catch up to the Kryptonian Ships 

Animated GIF

which likely scale to Superman's pod as a baby being literally just an escape pod vs a warship, Supeman's escape pod which traveled the distance from Saturn to Earth in likely 24 hours or less and quickly traveled the Earth Moon distance. This would be at conservatively over 1% the speed of light.

Faster then this is the DCAU Darkseid who matched DCAU Superman who could catch up to the Eye of Ekrom traveling to the Sun from Earth in "3 minutes" which would require speeds nearly 3 times the speed of light.

However there are emations of Darkseid much faster. In the Injusice emanation he was able to fight Injustice Superman who flew from Earth to Apokolips and blitzed Injustice Hal Jordan


Considering that Green Lanterns have to fly around the universe to protect it this is clearly mftl, and if they are to cross most of the universe in any reasonable timeframe likely trillions of times the speed of light, potentially quadrillions. 

The Superfriends and Smallville version of Darkseid is similar scaling from Green Lantern who regularly must traverse large portions of the universe. 

The fastest emanation of Darkseid however is the Earth-1 emanation. This version was able to blitz Pre-Crisis Superman. 

 

Pre-Crisis Superman was easily able to break the time barrier and travel millions of years into the future


this means he likely scales to the feat of Wally West, while he was still trying to hold back and not run into the speedforce being able to reach trans-time velocity and run from outerspace faster then humans have any words for, including the planck instant


As the comic says "in a fraction of a second so infinitesmal no word exists to describe it" this may in fact be infinite speed. This might be consistent with Darkseid blitzing Pre-Crisis Superman who could transcend the bounds of infinity with his speed, though that was when Pre-Crisis Superman was really pushing himself


Nonetheless Godhead Darkseid would scale to this infinite speed regardless due to existing in a higher world then Flash and Superman. 



I'm only going to be going over the most relevant abilities of both sides.

Going over their various abilities the most basic ability in Saint Seiya that essentially all fighters of note possess is the ability to manipulate cosmo. Cosmo is the hidden energy of the universe from the Big Bang, the energy hidden in the atoms of the universe that allow the cosmo users to destroy atoms



For Saints to battle against each other, both of them are constantly replenishing their own atoms so they are not atomized from each others blows


As all things are comprised of atoms, manipulation of cosmo allows for the control of the natural forces. While still in training Dragon Shiryu was able to use his cosmo to reverse the flow of a waterfall


Cosmo is metaphysical in nature and can allow for the affecting of intangible things such as ghosts


A Sainta being able to destroy an unknown large number of evil spirits








Cancer Deathmask maintained the existence of hundreds of souls between the Underworld and Earth




Cosmo is also able to destroy a curse itself and the eternal photons making up light

Cosmo can also allow for the cutting of spacetime itself and causing quantum scale destruction


Indeed Cosmo allows for affecting even the conceptual bodies of the Gods. Cosmo also allows for seeing the invisible as Cancer Deathmask saw the prayers of Shunrei for Shiryu



Cosmo can be seen as the first steps to the Seventh Sense, the mysterious power of life, especially humans to create miracles and transcend limits. All of Athena's Saints, the most main characters of the Saint Seiya franchise have learned to utilize their 5 senses and the sixth sense, representing mind/intuition in the pursuit of mastering their cosmo.

The 6th sense gives various psychic abilities. Examples including sensing presences


including at high enough levels from other realms entirely, sensing the cosmo in the Underworld from Earth


allowing sight even when blind


the ability to react uncounciously to danger to the self


or for Saints, to Athena herself

and indeed other forms of limited Precognition, made up of a large mixture of pseudo-councious mental functions


allowing the Saint to even know where an attack will land


Mastering of the Sixth Sense grants abilities beyond even these. 

All Saints, have some level of the sixth sense, can usage of their cosmo. They use it in particular ways, most notably Saints have the famous trait of the Saints; if an attack is used once against them or they see it being used once, they can adapt to it and become resistant to it, said across all versions of Saint Seiya



 

in fact if a Saint has seen a move once, not only can they grow resistant to it, but the Saint can turn it back on it's user with difficulty



The strongest class of the Saints are the Gold Saints who have unlocked the 7th sense, the extension of the will to be able to create miracles.

The Power of Miracles allows for the unleashing of a human's infinite potential

 



The power of miracles allows a person to raise their cosmo briefly to match a much stronger opponent


In fact by extending the Seventh Sense to it's ultimate normal extent, a Saint can even create a Big Bang though this does not seem to be a common ability


The power of a miracle is the power to transcend a natural law or limit, the power to make an impossibility possible


The Seventh Sense also allows replaces all the prior senses if they are lost, being able to act in place of them


Superior to even the 7th Sense is the 8th Sense, called Arayashiki or Buddhahood. Normally attained only at death, the 8th sense allows for travel to the Underworld while still alive


The 8th sense also allows for returning from the Underworld and resurrecting the self at will

 





The 8th Sense is called the essence of cosmo and allows for a more intense cosmo






This reserve of energy is so great that the battle between Virgo Shijima and Virgo Shaka, both enlightenened, threatend to extend past the normal 1000 day war of any two gold saints and continue on for all eternity


The 8th sense allows also the user to transcend death via allowing the Cosmo to fight on even without a body by directly possessing the cloth armor it has touched



Transcending even the 8th sense is the 9th Sense, known as Godhood.

The Cosmo of a God is unlike that of a mortal, causing terror and compeling them to follow their orders


The Cosmo of a God nearby will passively paralze mortals and drain them of their very life force

and in the Gigantomachia novel it is said that the Gods presence passviely removes the first six senses of humanity.

The Gods are not material beings, but Aristolean Concepts, the very patterns making up reality itself 


Translation: "You may have destroyed me...But for as long as conflicts exist....without a shadow of a doubt...The battlefields, the smell of blood....will permit me to return"

Naturally immaterial, they can posses and inhabit physical bodies

The power of the Gods and the Ninth Sense is so great as to control the very laws of physics and nature that the Seventh Sense temporarily transcends, such that Hades without even being his real body from another dimension was able to align the planets of the solar system



The 9th Sense allows for even manipulation of causality itself, as when two Shuras existed in the same time, and both were to be erased from paradox, the Goddess Athena did grant them the ability to exist in contradiction to the causality of the universe to prevent Hades power from turning him into a Spectre instead







Gods have the propery that any move used against them by a non-divine source will get reflected back onto them


The Divine Blood of the Gods, Ichor, grants resistance to all forces of the universe, "defense against everything"


The Gods with their Dunamis are able to create and maintain whole realities as Hades did create the Underworld, Hyperdimension and Elysion, showing their godly control of matter-energy and atoms


These are the abilities possessed by all the beings of a certain power level, but beings often have hax unique abilities as well including things like Virgo Shaka creating a mental space dimension containing numerous galaxies


Bear in mind that mental power grow much closer as Saga claimed that only of the Gold Saints that Mu and Dohko could deliver a jolt to his mind


Even Shaka himself has grown far beyond this, after unlocking the 8th sense and attaining nirvana, Shaka was able to transport his counciousness back in time hundreds of years and engage in a mental battle with Virgo Shijima involving the destruction and creation of countless universes

Saint Seiya - Next Dimension Chapter 58 : A-Un, The Beginning And The End page 5 - MangaNelo.com
Saint Seiya - Next Dimension Chapter 58 : A-Un, The Beginning And The End page 6 - MangaNelo.com
Saint Seiya - Next Dimension Chapter 58 : A-Un, The Beginning And The End page 7 - MangaNelo.com
Saint Seiya - Next Dimension Chapter 58 : A-Un, The Beginning And The End page 8 - MangaNelo.com
Saint Seiya - Next Dimension Chapter 58 : A-Un, The Beginning And The End page 9 - MangaNelo.com

Titans can create, even while sealed, their own dimensions containing multi-stellar space as well as inhabited planets with billions upon billions of lives, their cosmos, souls and minds, and can reshape them or destroy them at will to reabsorb their power



The God Saturn was able to freeze all of time, save for Cosmo Users who could resist it


Dimensional BFR, a specialty of the Gemini Saints


Removal of the Senses



Memory Manipulation


Virgo Shaka can split an enemy's consciousness into six seperate realms at once, trapping their consciousness in one of the realms for eternity


Cold temperaures as cold as absolute zero


as well as temperatures several hundreds of times colder...somehow



Titan King Cronos turning back in time for the whole of the Earth with his presence (not yet translated into English). Similarly Zeus possess the Keraunos Lightning, a lightning that can kill even immortals. There's also resistance to all of these abilities outside the Keraunos.

There's many more hax abilities as well but this is a good covering of many of the broken ones.


Likewise this will only be listing Darkseid's most notable abilities.

Darkseid likes all the New Gods is a conceptual entities, platonic archetypal beings that exist above physical reality


Darkseid can also possess material beings as he did to Dan Turpin


Darkseid is a neccesary part of existence to the point that when he was removed from time, it caused the collapse of time

And when he was killed by The Spectre, he returned to existence due to the neccesity of Darkseid to existance


It is unclear if this would occur in the Saint Seiya Multiverse since Darkseid himself might not be neccesary tot he SS Multiverse, though his concept would be.

Darkseid's most famous ability is the Omega Beams, beams that give total oblivion, making it so not only does the affected not only cease to exist, but they cease to have ever existed


These Omega Beams seak out their target, actively turning and phasing through any physical object in the way


His Omega Rays can bfr enemies across spacetime


or to inflict massive pain


or to trap a being's life force inside an object


Darkseid can disappitate matter-energy into base quanta


and can absorb energy on a planetary scale


Darkseid can control 3 billion Pre-Crisis Daxamites, equal to Pre-Crisis Kryptonians with his mind


alongside his hypergenius brain capable of creating hyper-advanced technology to convert himself into cosmic force to access the realm of Anti-Life and steal some of it's power



bolstered by his telepathic ability to not just read minds but drain them of information


Darkseid can open portals to anywhere in spacetime at will with boom tubes, even outside spacetime 


as well as change the course of another Boom Tube


Darkseid can paralyze opponents


or telekinetically hold them


His Omega Force can shatter souls


or resurrect whole armies


Darkseid is evil incarnate and is within all things



Darkseid has 18 additional divine senses


Darkseid sees the invisible and the soul


and Darkseid can see across dimensions


Darkseid can erase powers


grant powers (such as transforming a human infant into the monster Validus)


and can steal power, as he did to the old gods


Darkseid was even able to kill Zeus by absorbing all his life forces


A simple punch from Darkseid cracked space


and he can harden time itself as he did to Amped Ares


Darkseid can bend time to his whim as easily a mortal being


and like any god in DC, can easily time travel

 

Darkseid's can make a temporal distortation that seconds feel like days, twisting spacetime


Darkseid can invade dreams at will


and using the Omega Sanction can trap someone in an endless series of realities that grow ever worse, designed to break their will until they serve only Darkseid


Darkseid can take control of all technology nearby


created the reality-warper Stayne


and can even manipulate concepts, having caught and altered the Black Racer, a concept of Death



Darkseid can create avatars of himself which were able to contend with Post-Crisis Superman who was able to survive enough anti-sunlight to vaporize half a galaxy



and could move fast enough to rival the great speedsters, suggesting he is nigh speedforce level in speed though not past the speedforce barrier like his Pre-Crisis Version


Darkseid's body can withstand his own Omega Effect


As well as as a large plethora of resistances just by being conceptual in nature

His true form was also going to convert the entire multiverse into a massive singularity where all was Darkseid







The last thing to really go over is numbers. For brevity sake gonna go over this more quickly

For Saint Seiya, the infinite multiversal threats number depending anywhere from 4 to 8 confirmed depending on what you believe, using only beings normal states and not temporary base like Coeus with the Keuranos. Chronos is the physical embodiment of all spacetime. Cronos the titan king was a threat to all of spacetime but was overthrown by his son Zeus. Cronos overthrew his father as well, but Uranus (the sky) and Cronos struggled intensly, suggesting the 4 are all high multiversal. Also possible is 4 more: Gaia (The Earth) required Cronos' cosmo to be released, along with the other 11 titans, suggesting she outranks them in power. Her other consort after the overthrow of Uranus, Tartarus  (Underworld) was equal to her in power and their progeny Typhon, strongest of the giants of the age of myths was said to have scared the Olympians, Zeus included, and wounded Zeus to some degree. Finally the third Saint Seiya Movies contains the villain Phoebus Abel, who reigned before the Olympians and who the overthrowing of was stated to have required all, suggesting Abel might be relative to even Zeus.

Below them in stature are the Celestial Emperors, who are comparable to the brothers Poseidon and Hades, stated to be equal in cosmo, who scale to Hades maintaining 3 realms likely each much larger then universes. On this level are the Saint Seiya Omega Villains Abzu and Saturn who were able to fight Athena and her Omega Powered Saints comparable to better then Hades did against Athena and the God Saints (Omega Saints being even stronger then God Saints). The God of the Sun in the prevaling centuries since the Age of Myth seems to have grown this stronger, defeating Athena with far greater ease then Hades could have. It is relevant that Apollo is the God of the Sun which seems to be an exalted status in Saint Seiya, giving the Gold Cloths their miraculous capacities and whose power even Hades is afraid off. For this reason Ra and Quetzalcoatl (his opponent Tezcatlipoca as well, though SS Tezcatlipoca isn't a sentient entity) might be this strong though this is speculative. Lucifer would also probably be here as he was awoken by the combined cosmo of Poseidon, Eris and Abel, suggesting he should be fairly high in the rankings in terms of power) While he has appeared even less then Zeus, the Christian God would neccesarily scale to being superior then Lucifer. 

There are several dozen more gods known in SS in total but these are the most relevant. As the SS Earth has infinite realities, the non-god entities are infinite in number neccesarily. 
  


For Darkseid, his numbers are mostly the numbers of his forces, though we can also consider the number of emanations, which would be potentially infinite as there are infinite universes in DC. Darkseid's forces would be similarly innumerable in total, though in each universe there would be roughly a planet's worth, ranging from DC Street Level, which should be likely hypersonic building level scaling from Atlanteans that can tank the pressure of the bottom of the ocean as well as numerous bullet timing feats all the way to powerful new gods that can fight evenly with Pre-Crisis Superman.










So the big question....if Darkseid were to appear in Saint Seiya, could he solo? 

Darkseid has numerous advantages and numerous disadvantages here, as is the inverse. One of the most interesting advantages Darkseid as hypothetically is that he is a platonic concept, ie does not need any manifestations to exist, while the Saint Seiya Gods are aristolean concepts and are connected to their manifestations.

This doesn't actually give Darkseid any kind of defensive advantage...after all Saints can physically affect gods no problem suggesting if they had enough cosmo they absolutely could affect Darkseid. The advantage is actually an offensive advantage because it means if Darkseid were to appear in the Saint Seiya Multiverse and did his trick of converting the entire multiverse into a singularity where all is Darkseid he would kill all the opposing Gods who require manifestations in the physical world.

That said, Darkseid is at a pretty immediate disadvantage from the sheer numbers problem. Darkseid, in the best circusmtances for him, is outnumbered 4 to 1 in terms of the high multiversal. It is also possible that both they and he could possess physical entities to battle should their true selves get wounded or they want to add extra protection, however is this is the case it would actually present a net benefit to the SS Gods, as Darkseid converting Dan Turpin into a body he could possess actually took time to do, while the SS Gods can actually possess bodies immediatly so long as they put their soul into the entity, as was shown with Hades and Shun. Especially considering that Dan Turpin, whose mostly a normal person was able to resist Darkseid's control for a time via his soul and will. This would severely limit who Darkseid could realistically quickly take control of in the SS-verse, as almost everyone relevant has a superhuman willpower.

Another advantage Darkseid has is his sheer level of intelligent. Darkseid regularly manipulates the beings of the multiverse, taps into higher transcendent forces, creates miraculous technology and so forth. Saint Seiya higher level of intelligence is a bit more vague and it's more like Athena's divine wisdom or Chronos's nigh-omniscience of events in spacetime due to it's nature. 

In a straight up fight, Darkseid has a lot of abilities that are rare in the Saint Seiya Multiverse, like power manipulation or information draining,  that said he doesn't have feats on the SCALE of a lot of SS Gods. Darkseid can mentally control a planet, but any Sealed SS Titan can do that. While Darkseid did to it to a race of Daxamites, I highly doubt it's as great a mental feat as Shijima and Shaka create innumerable universes in their mental battle. That said they will definitely require that advantage since a lot of the Divine Abilities of SS don't work on non-gods while Darkseid is explictly a god. 

Darkseid's Omega Beams are impossible to dodge and SS doesn't have very good explict existence erasure feats, however SS characters possess attack reflection. This won't be a win button since Darkseid is explictly immune to his own omega effect, but it should be able to keep them from being suddenly erased from being.

Darkseid also possesses time travel and could attack them in the past, but any God's ichor gives them acausality meaning that attacking their past wouldn't kill them in the past. 

On the other hand, the Keruanos of Zeus MIGHT work on Darkseid, stripping him of his immortality, as he could do to another SS God, that said if it doesn't work, then it will make Darkseid even more dangerous as he could simply absorb it along with SS Zeus's lifeforce pretty much exactly as he did to DC Zeus. 

Sensory removal will do absolutely nothing to Darkseid regardless as he has 18 additional divine senses. Most physical abilities of cosmo simply won't do much to Darkseid.

If it comes down to their minions, for the most part the Bronze and Silver Saints could probably defeat most of Darkseid's lesser minions, though they would really struggle against any New God, even a low tier one or a really low tier emanation of Darkseid, though that is something a Silver Saint MIGHT be able to beat due to their MHS speed if they can utilize a nuclear source like a nucleur plant to become a planetary threat. 

Most New Gods and Most Strong Darkseid Emanations would be at the lower end of Gold Saint tier with Darkseid's Avatar being probably Mid-Tier Gold Saint Tier. While it's completely believable that Darkseid would be able to swarm Sancutary, as their are only 12 Gold Saints, there is also numerous other Gold Saint Level Beings outside the Gold Saints, including the Sea Shogun of Poseidon, The Celestial Spectres of Hades, the God Warriors of Asgard, Saints that achieved Gold Saint level of cosmo despite being inferior to them in terms of power such as Lyra Orphee, Altar Hakurei, and Albiore etc. 

Now what is true is that  high tier minions of Darkseid and Darkseid's stronger Emanations would require a Gold Saint to match in power and would still be much faster , although it should be noted that humans cosmo, including their speed can rise infinitely to match a threat via the power of miracles. Also it should noted that there are numerous low tier gods, including more then a half dozen Celestial Emperor Tier Gods who can overpower even these entities. The Major threat would still be speed, though those with ichor would be able to fight this somewhat.

Darkseid could also try to hang in the back, depending on how the scenario is set up, and manipulate things to his liking, and this strategy would probably be really effective if allowed, though it should be noted that the Pope of Athena can see threats to Sanctuary in the stars.

If Darkseid tried to just go directly at them, the sheer numbers would likely overwhelm his forces. He would likely be able to defeat a few of the High Multiversal entities in Saint Seiya, that said if he tried to destroy the entire multiverse to kill the Gods, it's notable that Chronos could slow down his descent and the destruction of the multiverse with his spacetime control, and Zeus could potentially bombard him with divine lighting with support from Cronos Mega Drapnon which ignores distance to target meaning it could likely hit him while he was still in Apokalips.

That's not to say it would be easy. Darkseid is more versatile, smarter, faster, and arguably even more hax then anyone in particular in the Saint Seiya Multiverse, and it's very likely that he would have a signifigant chance to win even against the multiverse.

However Darkseid does have a weakness, specifically to a material known as radion, a conceptual material from the Source that acts as Kryptonite to the New Gods. If the SS-verse found out, via time manipulation perhaps, it's possible that they could use the Dunamis of the Gods to create radion. While Strong New Gods have survived bullets of Radion, it's possible the SS Gods could create even whole worlds of Radion.

The Saint Seiya Multiverse is ruled by a strange thing known as The Big Will, a power beyond any limitation or boundaries, the supreme extension of the Ninth Sense, and the Supreme Omega from which all Omega is derived from. Omega is the source of the strange infinite potential of humanity as shown in Saint Seiya Omega and is born of love and friendship, the bonds of humanity. Darkseid is evil incarnate. It's very likely that he would try to turn the verse against itself, as is his modus operandi, but he can not fathom the Big Will, for it is a recurring motif in Saint Seiya that people will come together in the face of a greater threat. Take the Gold Saints uniting their power to defeat Hades and save humanity in the Classic Manga or the Gold Saints unitied to defeat the Titans and save humanity in Episode G :P. Point being Darkseid is the Anti-Big Will, and it is likely that in uniting, the verse together could defeat him, just as the Omega defeats evil, and just as Darkseid could not easily break the will of a single strong-willed human.




TLDR: Darkseid could probably beat anyone in the verse one on one, but probably wouldn't be able to solo the verse.  

3 comments:

  1. Wow theres almost a limit to how much OP i feel i can ingest in one sitting this is nuts. Yeah Darkseid is an enormous Hurtle to challenge verses to climb over, fitting as the literal God of Evil and Toughest baddie the Justice League ever fought, him being the bar for challenges makes sense. This reminds me of when you were trying to figure out if the Magical Girl Goddesses could take him down, i dont know what you decided on there but seeing how well he did here i dont know if they could, Saint Seyia IS a premeir OP and Awesome series, yeah its the most powerful Shonen but i always did feel its connection to DC with how its Greek Based, has a whole team of heros with very similar stats to the JLA, fighting gods with science magic and cosmic energy, its metal af. this cosmic war senario is really cool to think about and i had a lotta fun reading this. you did an AMAZING job researching and Im very impressed with what i learned.

    PEGASUS FANTASY!

    ReplyDelete
  2. Wow! Can my favorite series take on what may be the strongest villain ever? I'm glad you're the one to tackle this 'cause I don't know nearly enough about DC. This blog is quite the valuable one, not just because it tackles a very big question, but in doing so and listing such a wealth of information for both sides, the world ends up with this handy collection of data for future use. Thanks Imp!

    Speaking of a wealth of information, this was HUGE! And I've said that before but jeez, this is definitely one of the bigger ones! And I wouldn't have it any other way :) I love how every sentence is backed up with official sources, not to mention seeing all the old Saint Seiya pages made me feel warm and fuzzy. So warm my Cosmo might explode! I was really taken aback by the sheer magnitude of powers you were listing for both sides. I'm pretty sure you mentioned you were only going to list the ones that were relevant, so for this truncated list to be so long REALLY puts into perspective how many abilities exist in both verses. But see, that's the thing: when you're listing things for Saint Seiya, those are powers shown to be possessed by a wide variety of characters across various SS series. On the other side, it's all Darkseid, the whole thing is one dude (made manifold) with just as impressive of an assortment of powers. Granted, almost all of that stuff on the Saint Seiya side falls under the ridiculously wide umbrella of "applications of Cosmo" but still, not everybody in that verse can do all of those things. Darkseid matching it all by himself pound for pound impresses me more than any other villain's power.

    It was getting to the point where I was worried Saint Seiya couldn't win. Reading this blog felt like reading/watching a battle between one of my favorite fictional characters and someone who stood a very real chance of killing them; I was on the edge of my seat! Even at the end there, it still feels very close! I totally agree with ya on your conclusion, though I'm biased of course. Makes me kind of want to see a crossover, with the saints meeting DC superheroes. DC and SS teaming up against Darkseid doesn't seem like a fair fight but then again, I doubt all the evil Saint Seiya characters would be willing to team up with the good guys' side in a crossover scenario. I'm getting off track though, this is the part where I tell you that this blog is super freaking awesome and I'm so happy you wrote it and posted it here so the world (and me) could read it! Thank you Imp, you really did both sides justice!

    ReplyDelete
  3. It really puts into perspective how op DC Comics is when you take one of the main villains and have him come close to singlehandedly defeating another overpowered verse (well aside from his emanations I guess). Great blog, you really did a LOT of research to find all these specific feat instances. I really appreciate you going over the range of power of different Saint Seiya characters and Darkseid incarnations. It really gives a thorough view to how powerful even low tiers are in Saint Seiya and in a way gives more insight into why the high tier Saint Seiya characters are so OP.And I find it fun to look at different portrayals of the same character in different media, which made the references to DCEU, DCAU, etc. interesting in Darkseid's case.

    Your analysis of how a battle with Darkseid would go seems pretty logical, with Saint Seiya characters having to reach their limits to gain an advantage. The radion weakness does seem like a great way for Seiyaverse to take him down. And I thought it was a nicely thematic observation that Saint Seiya's willpower inherent in the verse could probably win out against Darkseid's evil like Dan Turpin's did.

    Saint Seiya seems like a series that is barely talked about in the West so it was fun to learn more about it as well.

    ReplyDelete