Saturday, August 6, 2022

How to beat Lucifer Morningstar


I recently made a blog on the strongest character I've ever done scaling for, Lucifer Morningstar. I feel like when you make a vs analysis demonstrating the strengths of a character it's a good idea, especially the stronger they get to express what you think their limits are. Lucifer is one of the strongest characters in DC Comics and fiction in general, stronger than 99.9999% of characters, but he is regularly challenged and can be beaten, so I wanted to express how one can beat him, what characters can you pick that would be a good counter to Lucifer. It's not easy, being honest as I mentioned earlier Lucifer clearly solos 99% of verses and potentially solos most of the rest. But here are three points that I think would help 

1: Holy Presence: By far the biggest is that some level of divine presence seems to nullify Lucifer's powers. One of the most vulnerable states Lucifer has ever been in was when he went to Izanami's domain where he was rendered "powerless" and "mortal" and while powerless for Lucifer is still really strong, it's night and day trying to fight Lucifer with the full extent of his power vs Lucifer with power diminished. Now granted, you need a really high level of holiness for this to work. Lucifer can fly to the Silver City, the abode of the Angels with no noticeable diminishing of his power. Lucifer was only weakened by the abode of the Shinto Kami Izanami who was leading an entire pantheon of divinities, and the cross. So you basically need a character that's a divine monarch of a pantheon of Gods in their own domain, or a messianic archetype. It's important this is a passive presence, as Lucifer naturally has Absolute Motion and giving him literally any opportunity to use his powers and he would instantly kill almost any opponent. This is why the other physical "weaknesses" of Lucifer are generally important. Demons are generally weak to silver and eldritch cold and Lucifer seems to be weak to destiny manipulation, but you would need to be nearly as strong as him to be able to beat him with it. 

2: Being Un-manipulatable: Even in Izanami's domain, Lucifer still had his two strongest assets; his will and his wit which he used together to absolutely stomp the Kami there. Lucifer's manipulation is a constant threat even if his powers are inhibited. However his intellect isn't absolute, he did lose his gamble against Destiny and one of the eight fairy lords, Huon the small, resisted Lucifer's manipulation.. A character that is similarly an all-seeing type character on a similar scale or at least is so immensely wise that they seem to be can avoid being manipulated. On the other hand, the opposite is true. A character who is non-sentient, or at least lacks any desires or will has nothing for Lucifer to manipulate. He can't exactly manipulate a non-sentient force or energy psychologically. 

3: Void: If the fight takes place in a blank void as a lot of these cosmic fights tend too and the character has a form of void or non-existent physiology, then Lucifer's strongest abilities are nullified similar to the first weakness. Lucifer can't create from nothing hence why he needed Michael's aid in creating a creation; Michael to provide the energy, and Lucifer to shape it. If given nothing to work with, Lucifer can't shape anything. 

Granted finding one of these alone is difficult enough, and it would probably take at least two of them to defeat Lucifer. I wanted to give some ideas of who I think would beat Lucifer Morningstar. These are not the only characters I think could, or even necessarily the only ones I think could in their verse, it's simply who my mind goes to thinking of the above weaknesses. 

Let's get the obvious one out of the way first


The above picture is for the Marvel Comics version, but I believe that any version of Jesus Christ that is meant to be a seriously depict him as he is in the Bible, would beat Lucifer for what I think are fairly obvious reasons. The most obvious traits of Jesus included in any serious recreation are that he is a sinless perfect man, at one with the holy spirit, and messiah of the world. His presence would absolutely and obviously depower Lucifer. Likewise he is depicted virtually exclusively as all-knowing and perfectly moral, resisting the temptation of the Biblical Lucifer, and would similarly be impossible for the Morningstar to manipulate for similar reasons. 

I feel like this one is kind of cheating since....it's the obvious one. But I wanted to include it because it's one that would apply to a surprisingly large number of verses that would work. 


The Fireman from Twin Peaks I also think would be able to do it. The Fireman is an insanely powerful character already, being considered possibly one of the strongest in fiction with his own set of insane feats and abilities but is also quite literally a representation of "God Energy." which has been shown to passively overwhelm spirits with raw holy. He's also an omniscient type character, whose stands beneath all consciousness and is the fount of all intelligence. I think intellectually it would be similar to Lucifer vs Destiny. The thing that makes this unwinnable for Lucifer is that Lucifer vs the Fireman would be a good match if Lucifer's powers were at their fullest extent, but the Fireman happens to passively nullify Lucifer's powers.


Similar to the first idea, this is the Buddha from World of Darkness but honestly it could apply to most forms of the Buddha that are meant to accurately reflect the religious texts of Buddhism. Buddha is the central religious figure of Buddhism described as the perfectly enlightened one whose presence would almost assuredly be more holy than Izanami's palace. Buddha is not only all-knowing but he is specifically all-knowing in that he no desires meaning there is nothing for Lucifer to manipulate. He has also attained unity with nothingness, meaning that Lucifer would have nothing to manipulate of the Buddha and in a void, nothing to manipulate period. There is a reason the Presence compared and Lucifer to the Buddha and Sun Wukong. If Lucifer tried to fight the Buddha, it would very much be a Buddha and Sun Wukong situation. World of Darkness is one of the strongest depictions of the Buddha in fiction outside maybe the Cthulhu Mythos Buddha, but this could honestly apply to most versions of the Buddha in fiction, as there are the most standard traits given.


Anu from the Elder Scrolls would be able to do it, arguably before even becoming the Amaranth. Anu is a transconceptual entity born as part of a duality to define the dream of the Godhead, representing the ineffable light and primordial stasis. Not only is it a being that even before becoming Amaranth, had insane feats and abilities arguably enough to defeat Lucifer (might not have quite as many abilities as Lucifer, but a light of stasis on that scale would almost certainly work similar to the Presence doing so to Lucifer before in his mind), but Anu is the soul of all things, the pure source and light similar as the Source in DC Comics which would nullify Lucifer's powers and after becoming Amaranth, Anu becomes a pure void, devoid of anything Lucifer could manipulate either directly or psychologically. Once again, there are other entities in the Elder Scrolls that could do so, this is just the one that most clearly to me fits the weaknesses of Lucifer.


Finally I think that God from the Unsong series, Ein Sof, would beat Lucifer. Unsong is a series trying to accurately depict the Kabbalah, a collected set of Jewish Mysticism. The Ein Sof or the manifest version of God is already easily comparable to Lucifer as a cosmological principle representing Absolute Infinity, perfectly holy in presence but its true self is the Atzmus, the divine beyond concepts, the void of limitations un-manipulatable in either way. This is probably the clearest counter to Lucifer I can think of and the reason why is because DC Comics also uses elements of Kabbalah... the Ein Sof is basically just the Presence, and the Atzmus is basically the Overvoid. Lucifer canonically loses to someone like the Presence and would similar lose to the Ein Sof.


You'll notice some shared themes because you need something very specific and very strong to beat Lucifer Morningstar. In my favorite series list, which includes 33 series including DC Comics itself, I can think of 1 character outside DC that I think would beat Lucifer and then 2 more I think might be able too. Some of these are kind of overkill both being some of the strongest characters in fiction AND being specific counters to Lucifer's weaknesses but eh. 

1 comment:

  1. This was an interesting companion piece to your main Lucifer blog. I remember being kinda surprised that Izanami could depower Lucifer like that in your main blog given he is the will of God, so I am glad you talked about that here. For what it’s worth, I am glad you included both Jesus and the Buddha here just because they feel so thematic as picks. It was really cool to see the Fireman though, and I like how you compared him to a DC Comics character that Lucifer interacted with. I don’t know much about Elder Scrolls cosmology, or Unsong as a whole, but the tactics you mentioned would seem to work. So overall, cool blog.

    ReplyDelete