Wednesday, April 19, 2023

H'el vs Cell

 


The most famous powerscaling match is probably Superman vs Goku, however both of those characters have a villain with a similar name, both of whom are a genetic clone comprised of numerous individuals, highly proud of their hereditary nature, both of whom are known for their relatively high amount of hax abilities, both are specifically threats to the Solar System, and both of whom have a thematic parallel with the protagonist representing partially the genetic weakness of their alien species; the Kryptonians and Saiyans. So who would win if they were to fight? In case someone stumbles on this without knowledge of either character I'll give a quick backstory on both. 

H'el is a clone greated with genetic material of countless Kryptonians who believed himself falsely to be a member of the House of El, crash landing on Earth 27 years after the destruction of Krypton. He sought to absorb the Sun's energy to travel back in time and save Krypton at the expense of the collapse of the Solar System. 

Cell is the ultimate creation of Dr. Gero who combined the genetic material of the greatest warriors he could find in order to create the "perfect warrior." Cell initially displayed a single-minded desire to attain his perfected form and reach the ultimate state he was designed for however after attaining such he instead wished to display his newly found perfected state.

For this one I'm going to be considering the two in what I consider to be the physically most fair version of the matchup this being Pre-Star Chamber H'el vs Super Perfect Cell from the Cell Saga of the DBZ Anime. Afterwards I'll also consider the hypothetical matchup of H'el after bathing in the Star Chamber and gaining Chronokinetic abilities vs Super Perfect Cell from DBGT after he trained in Hell to battle Goku again. The reason I'm not pitting H'el against Canon Cell is to be blunt I think while the power level matches up between H'el and Manga Cell during the Cell Saga, H'el would simply speedblitz, and conversely I think Cell Max, who isn't even really Cell, is cosmically more powerful and faster then H'el and it simply wouldn't be a fight. Though most manga feats of Cell would still apply as they generally also happen in the anime so if you see me using manga scans, it's just for convenience. 

H'el vs Cell, who'd win?


First I'd like to compare the two in terms of raw power. 

H'el displayed at numerous points the ability to easily overpower New 52 Superman and Superboy


Hel completely tanked an angry full charge from New 52 Supergirl and strikes from an angry New 52 Superman that shook the planet from the Core to the Atmosphere did little to him



New 52 Superman when infected with the Doomsday virus pushed New 52 Brainiac to the center of a Black Hole, the doomsday virus being purged from him while inside, and both Brainiac and Superman withstanding it. Superman MIGHT be stronger at this point then he was during his fight with H'el, but H'el should very well scale above Vril Dox regardless, especially given his performance against Supergirl


Based on size, this black hole feat has been calced to a bit over 2.4 supernova worth of energy, which H'el should scale somewhere in the Ballpark of.

It's possible H'el is even stronger. New 52 Superman has withstood energy that "no force in the universe could withstand"


and as someone who scales to Superman should scale to most members of the Green Lantern Corps. The Green Lanterns have numerous cosmic feats and in Post-Crisis have several post-crisis feats such as John Stewart creating a Solar System with his ring


This was Post-Crisis but given that the New 52 was caused by the removal of a 10 year period in DC Comics, it's likely that Lantern Rings possess the same general capabilities and most upper tier Lanterns in New 52 could perform a similar feat. If this is so H'el would scale to the Solar System range, which depending on who you ask ranges from requiring 5.709 supernova worth of energy to perform to 22.77 supernova worth of energy to perform. 

Moving on to Cell, in one of the most famous statements in powerscaling, Cell states that he has gathered up enough energy to blow away not just the Earth, but the entire Solar System


This has been confirmed in numerous guides to the anime and is considered something Cell is famous for. 


This is obviously directly from the manga and as far as where the manga goes it, it's mostly where it stops


However the anime adds a few points that slightly complicates things and might mean he's stronger 

Elder Moori actually comments that Cell can destroy "the entire universe"


It's most likely he meant this overtime but the universe actually contains numerous celestial bodies more durable than star systems, most notably neutron stars which can take a couple thousands of supernova to destroy. However he says this about Perfect Cell, and as every guide states that Super Perfect Cell raised his chi here to being high enough to destroy a Solar System and Cell makes the statement about being able to specifically to be impressive heavily implying Perfect Cell would not be able to.

Another thing complicating this is Cell may not be making the statement he can destroy the Solar System IN GENERAL, but instead arguably is claiming he can do so RIGHT NOW, as in from the Earth. Destroying something from the center is the most efficient way of doing so and the Earth is not quite at the center of the Solar System. Given that parts of the Solar System would thus likely be much farther away this would take significantly more energy, again roughly one thousand supernova. 

There's also an argument that earlier characters in DBZ were solar system level, based on the interpretations of Freeza's destroying the Planet Namek with his "supernova" technique. I personally don't agree with this interpretation as the speed of the explosion was lowballed into being nearly the speed of light meaning it could very well be FTL speeds which would be incalculable as FTL Kinetic Energy as well as the prior points about Cell's statement of being able to destroy the Solar System meaning to be impressive and every guide similarly suggesting he had only just gained that ability.

Comparing H'el and Cell powerwise, I believe that Cell is more powerful. I would take from my perspective a more conservative position on both where H'ell would scale somewhere in the range of 2.4 supernova worth of energy scaling above New 52 Vril Dox, while Cell after attaining his Super Perfect Form has the ability to destroy a Solar System, requiring energy between 5.709 and 22.77 supernova worth, suggesting Cell would be roughly between 2.5 and 9.5 times stronger. This is a pretty clear gap in power, albeit maybe not enough to one-shot. If you are more generous with both H'el would scale to Solar System level while Cell would scale anywhere from 19 to 1,300 times as powerful as H'el which would most likely be an enormous gap in power and enough for Cell to tank any kind of physical strike from H'el even highly concentrated.


Going into speed, let me start by saying first if you believe that both the DC and DBZ universes are infinite in sized as suggested by some statements and that H'el and Cell scale to feats crossing any fraction of them in any finite time then both would have exactly equal speed, that being infinite. 



However because characters in both series at these tiers can travel finitely faster or slower than each other, that would cause a contradiction so for this I'm going to be assuming both have finite speed.


H'el is obviously able to keep up with Superman in speed as they fight and was even able to get Superboy in the Atlantic Ocean and travel back to Metropolis before Superman realized he left. This may be through the usage of teleportation though Superman at least thought it was from his speed.


The New 52 Superman also traveled from the edge of the DC Universe to Earth in 60 days


The DC Universe has distances from Earth at least 100 trillion light years out


to travel this in 60 days would require speeds of over 60 trillion times the speed of light.

They should also be comparable or superior to Green Lanterns who as part of their role have to patrol sectors of the universe containing millions of galaxies and the space between then, regularly have to go back and forth to Oa at the center of the Universe and which can casually fly across the universe in 10 hours


To travel the aforementioned distance in 10 hours would require a speed in excess of 87 quadrillion times the speed of light. It's possible that this may be a contradiction as Superman was traveling back to Earth in his feat non-stop as fast as possible, though it may simple be the case Superman was sent to further past where even the Lantern rings are programmed to go.

In the Toei Anime Goku in Dragon Ball Z episode 50 must return his wayward ship to the correct course, dodging asteroids going the opposite direction suggesting he would have to react at speeds similar to his spaceship. Later a much stronger Goku would battle Freeza the two moving so fast King Kai had difficulty following the fight


despite being able to track Goku's spaceship with ease despite this spaceship being able to travel from Earth to Namek in 6 days


It takes light 4.24 YEARS to travel to even the nearest star system meaning at a lowball, when Goku reaches the speed of his spaceship, he would reach a speed of at least 257 times the speed of light. This is pretty consistent with Kami's ship traveling to Jupiter in a timespan in the anime of 58 seconds


This would mean Kami's ship was moving at a bit over 51.225 times the speed of light using average distance of Earth and Jupiter. As it took one month to reach Namek while Goku's pod took 6 days, that means Goku's pod is about 5 times faster than it or 256.1 times the speed of light. When you compare to the prior 257 times the speed of light feat, while this feat is lowballed it's also extraordinarily consistent.

If you were to take a higher balled interpretation of this feat, King Kai ha described Namek as not being in his quadrant and the Dragon Ball Map shows Earth and Namek as being about halfway across the universe from each other if literal


However some parts of this map don't seem to be to scale and it's unknown how close to the edge of their quadrants Earth and Namek are. If you do take this guide more literally, and say Earth and Namek are about half a universe away then using the real life universe with a radius of 4.4e26 meters, traveling that in 6 days would be about 2.83 trillion times the speed of light.

Personally I think this is much less consistent especially given that it took Nappa and Vegeta a year to get from Arlia somewhere in the universe to Earth yet Goku's worse space pod can travel halfway across the Earth in 6 days? Plus the map generally doesn't seem to be scale. 

Either way  Cell even as Perfect Cell was able to blitz a Goku that was stronger to an unknown degree but likely hundreds if not thousands of times than Initial SSJ Goku, with this Goku having years of more training

In the anime after Cell is defeated he and several other villains go on a rampage in Hell trying to escape, a guide describing this Cell being "as strong as ever"


This suggests that at the time Cell still had the same power as he did during the Cell Games that happened almost immediately before, and would scale to this Cell. During this rampage, Goku and Pikkon travel from the Grand Kai Planet's down to Hell to stop them 


The Grand Kai's planet orbits Heaven which is stated to be as wide as the universe


It's unknown what timeframe this occurs in, but a relatively conservative calc puts this speed feat at 4.38 quadrillion times the speed of light and Cell at this point was probably able to fight at least base form Goku. While it's unknown what degree Goku had gotten stronger, given these events transpire right after the Cell Games it's unlikely to be that large. If you think Goku is basically as strong as he was during the Cell Games and he did this in base and you think that he could multiple that speed by 50 by going SSJ then he might reach a speed of 214 quadrillion times the speed of light and Cell might scale to this, though that's a real high ball in my opinion. 

There's also a plane that goes from Grand Kai's plant which Goku and Pikkon may have used making the speed feat contentious in general



Going over their speed feat, it's sort of the inverse of the power section. If you take a more lowballed estimate than H'el blitzes by a wide margin. He should at least scale to Superman crossing the universe in 60 days, a speed of 60 trillion times the speed of light while lowballed Cell is just vastly higher to an unknown degree to a speed feat hundreds of times the speed of light. While Cell would be obviously massively higher, that would be a gap of billions of times which it isn't really implied is made up in power increases.

If you take a more general interpretation, both are in the quadrillions of times the speed of light range, though Cell's scale is more so in the range of someone who's 4 quadrillion times the speed of light, maybe above while H'el is scaling significantly above people who are 87 quadrillion times the speed of light. I definitely think the two would be in the same range here, though I think H'el would probably be faster.

If you're really highballing them, some calcs the feat of Goku and Pikkon going to the afterlife as being something like sextillions of times the speed of light. Similarly some take the DC universe expanding 60 trillion lightyears in the first half second and use that to calc a universe size that would put New 52 Superman at the wacky high speed of over 2 octillion times the speed of light, but um I really don't agree with either calc. Broadly speaking I think it supports the general notion though that H'el is faster.


Before I get into their particular abilities, I'd like to compare them in terms of a few other stats.

In terms of combat skill H'el is able to generally fight evenly in skill with New 52 Superman after he had just gone through a training arc


The New 52 Superman was able to fight and counter Wraith, a being bigger and even stronger and faster than he was via fighting skill.

In real life fighting someone who is substantially stronger than you is extremely difficult and if they're faster than you as well it's unlikely any kind of skill would close that gap. Most likely this would suggest the New 52 Superman is by my skill rankings a B Tier Fighter, equivalent to the skill of real world masters of combat which would scale to H'el. 

Cell inherited the knowledge and skill of those he was created with and somewhat matched Goku during their battle in terms of blow for blow, going hand to hand on numerous instances and being able to predict some of his actions



Goku, even as a child could perform superhuman feats of skill such as immediatly copying the kamehameha technique upon seeing it despite it normally taking 50 years to learn


Goku would go on to become eventually the most skilled person in the universe outclipsing the skill of cosmic entities millions of years old. It's very clear that through scaling to being above an earlier Goku Cell would easily be an A Tier, or Superhumanly Skilled Fighter and thus more skilled than H'el.


In terms of intelligence, H'el is easily a Type 3 supergenius if not higher. He created a machine that would collapse the Solar System and maybe the Galaxy to use their energy for the purposes of time travel

He was able to clone an extinct Kryptonian Dragon as a test of Superman's powers


H'el technology was so advanced Superman would need to go to Lex Luthor to explain it to him


This might mean H'el is even smarter if you think Superman at all scales to his Post-Crisis self in intelligence given he's an alternate timeline version of him and if you think this means Batman wouldn't have understood it as Superman would probably have preferred to ask Bruce before Lex, though you could just say this is because of Lex's specific knowledge on Kryptonian things.

Cell is relatively smart, having acquired the information from the various individuals used in his creation. As mentioned he was able to predict Goku's jump and was able to evade capture from Piccolo in his imperfect form, Piccolo being able to track down the Androids despite Cell having a ki signature and the Androids didn't, though post-fusion with Kami, Piccolo is able to deceive Cell




With that said, H'el is clearly massively smarter than Cell. Not only does Cell just not have supergenius feats like H'el does, but Cell explictly had to kill his timeline's version of Trunks to get his time machine while H'el just...built his own.


I don't think range is going to be a major factor in this fight due to both characters having teleportation and the ability to adjust range at will. However to cover it briefly H'el like other New 52 Kryptonians can affect celestial bodies like planets with their attacks


while Cell can affect the Solar System


This means Cell hypothetically would have a range around 22.5 million times that of H'el, similar to the range difference between someone with the range of a normal human vs someone with a range that can encompass the planet. I don't think it's a big factor once again due to both having teleportation but hypothetically Cell has a far higher attack range.


Similarly in terms of stamina, I don't think this is a factor that would be very significant in this fight. Kryptonians have technically infinite stamina as they can act without end under the light of a Yellow Star in that they gain more enough energy to act normally from the rays hitting them, the excess stored in their internal solar battery. However they can overtax this by extremely heavy physical exertion which is why Kryptonians can get tired. New 52 Kryptonians have shown the ability to exert themselves heavily for 5 days without sunlight showing the extent of stamina of their solar battery.



Cell similarly absorbed the androids which can produce infinite energy though can still become tired, presumably by a similar basis of being much stronger and therefore being able to exert and use up more energy than the androids can produce. However Cell has superhuman stamina by scaling particularly being made of the DNA of Saiyan Saga Goku who was able to run on and off for six months straight and later able to fly for 2 days straight 


I think H'el probably has more hypothetical stamina, but it's neither a large advantage nor a factor I consider that large in this fight.


Now I'm going to go over the two characters most notable abilities and in what ways I think the other fighter could potentially counter if it all.

H'el as a representation of Krypton's Legacy has not just the Kryptonian physical abilities but the psychic powers all Kryptonians possess lately and can release through training. He's arguably more known for his psychic powers than his physical powers. 

H'el often uses a form of teleportation which he can use to teleport himself and others, such as when he teleported himself and Supergirl all the way to the Sun from the Atlantic Ocean


He was even able to teleport the entire Fortress of Sanctuary 


While H'el would obviously be able to teleport himself, he may not be able to teleport Cell against his will. Goku at a weaker point refused to be teleported by the Dragon Porunga


Though it's unclear if this is a resistance gained from their power level which would scale to Cell or a particular weakness of the Dragons being unable to affect people stronger than them which would not apply here. It's also possibly a result of Yardrat Training that gave Goku his Instant Transmission Technique, rather than a direct result of Goku's power level which would still apply to Cell as Cell also knows the Instant Transmission. 

Even if it does work however, outside of teleporting Cell into something like a Black Hole, H'el teleporting him would not give him that many options outside of doing something like teleporting him in the way of his own attacks. H'el teleporting Cell into space wouldn't work as Cell, due to his Freeza cells, can survive in the vacuum of space.


H'el can use telekinetic power which if significantly more powerful then he is. He was able to telekinetically hold Superman, Wonder Woman, and Superboy at once


and created a psychic whirlwind to trap the Teen Titans 


Cell I think might be able to break out of this with an omnidirectional ki wave, and even if not can simply teleport out of any kind of telekinetic binding




H'el normally rips the weapons away from his enemies to disarm them and can telekinetically crush someone's internal organs as he did to Faora's heart




However this is generally unlikely to do much of anything to Cell, as Cell doesn't really weird any weapons and he doesn't rely on any major internal organs like his heart and was able to easily regenerate from having the entire upper part of his body destroyed by Goku


At best, H'el could maybe use his telekinetic crushing ability to crush the power supplier of Android 17 or 18 within Cell though Super Perfect Cell doesn't need to rely on either of those so it's not a large advantage.

H'el has stated his telekinesis can tear apart Superboy atom by atom


This would be very helpful for H'el as it means he can hypothetically bypass Cell's regeneration as even Cell would not be able to return from atomization.

Along with his telekinesis H'el's telepathy grants him astral projection and telepathy able to directly interact with the minds of others. He used these abilities to show Supergirl an illusion of Krypton and trick her into thinking that Superman was attacking her. 



While these illusions were potent enough to even fool Kryptonians with their enhanced senses, more powerful than even the conventional senses of the Saiyans, Cell also has the ability to sense ki, the spiritual energy of others, and as such illusions would likely not work on him. 

For a very similar reason, H'el's ability to hide his presence to the point even Superman and Supergirl didn't know that he was there would likely not be effective as using ki sensing characters in Dragon Ball can regularly sense living entities on a planetary scale. He should also have the Namekian ability to sense not just the potency of a chi but also the nature of that chi, good or evil, an ability Goku seems to eventually gain, meaning H'el trying to deceive him likely wouldn't work.







H'el has stated he could fry the minds of some Kryptonians at will with his telepathy, which is pretty notable as Kryptonians have particular strong mental resistances


I'm not sure how well this would work on Cell. If H'el is talking about destroying their ethereal "mind", a thing separate from the body, then destroying it would hypothetically work on Cell and leave him basically mindlessly alive. However if he means that he would destroy their brain, the physical structure in their heads, then Cell could hypothetically regenerate from him doing so. Personally given the way his powers work and how he can astral project, in fact is astral projecting in this scene, I think it's more likely he's talking about their "mind" as a substance separate from the body, though I am not confident on that.

H'el's final telepathic ability is his ability to control peoples' minds directly. He used this to control an alternate universe Superboy, particularly impressive given the mental resistance of Kryptonians


This is an ability I don't think Cell would particularly be able to resist and is a pretty big point in H'el's favor. I think the best counter Cell would have is simply giving H'el too many enemies to control using something like the Cell Juniors as H'el has never shown the ability to control multiple people at once.


This I think would give some ability to counter H'el brainwashing him if it's done quickly enough though H'el's brainwashing would still be a credible threat.

H'el does have one more psychic ability offensively and it's probably his strangest ability. H'el can shrink people such as shrinking Supergirl and teleporting her into the city of Kandor.


Hilariously enough, Cell actually has a counter to this specific ability, namely that via his Namekian Cells he should be able to grow massive in size


If H'el shrunk Cell, Cell could probably just regrow back to his original size.

H'el also possesses the general capabilities of New 52 Kryponians physically. This includes Heat Vision


Kryptonian Heat Vision is a highly focused form of attack potency which they can use to attack parts of the opponent's brain to change their character or remove parts of their power via lobotomy


However as mentioned Cell could likely just regenerate that part of his brain, so this wouldn't be an especially helpful tactic. The concentration of the attack on a small area means it's likely Heat Vision could harm Cell even if Cell is several times stronger, but I don't think it could likely overtax Cell's regeneration.

As a Kryptonian, H'el should also hypothetically have access to freeze breath which can be used to freeze large areas of land


H'el freezing Cell MIGHT work, depending on if Cell reacts fast enough. If he's frozen solid then freezing him probably would work, but if Cell reacts fast enough or if his ki aura is already up, then it should passively melt the ice off him similar to Goku melting Ebifurya's ice off him in World's Strongest 


So long as Cell is still aware, he should be able to melt any ice off him with his ki aura.

While his regeneration is nowhere near as impressive as Cell's, Kryptonians do have their own healing factor while under yellow sunlight, with Kryptonians healing from being barely able to move to at full power in moments


This healing factor isn't that big a hinderance for Cell but it does mean that if they were to get into melee, even Cell having a physical advantage doesn't mean he would instantly one-shot H'el, so long as they're in sunlight, H'el should be able to withstand several physical strikes from Cell, though Cell can still hypothetically one-shot via the Kamehameha, an attack technique which focuses one's power briefly similar to the concentration of Heat Vision and kill even opponents with vastly stronger regen



Finally H'el, as a Kryptonian genetically whose power comes from Solar Energy, can amp himself by going to the Sun itself and "sundipping" amplifying his power dramatically depending on how long he is within the Sun


Cell has his own way of getting stronger during a fight and comparing them is pretty interesting. Cell via Saiyan DNA has the ability to get stronger whenever he's seriously injured, which somehow even works when he blows himself up


It's arguable which form of power amplification is stronger. H'el requires them to be near the Sun, Cell's requires him to nearly die. Both Sundipping Amp and Zenkai Boost can vary in terms of how much stronger they make you as well. Cell may also have the ability to perform the Kaio-Ken from Goku's cells as he learned the Genki Dama technique, though he doesn't seem to use it, presumably because Kaioken provides too much strains on the body of a Super Saiyan which was the initial reason Goku couldn't use both.

Going over Cell's major abilities, Cell's most famous ability is his regeneration. Cell claims that he can regenerate so long as a cluster of cells that make up his core within his head aren't destroyed


This is an odd and somewhat contentious statement however as Cell has regenerated from having the top half of his body blown off which seems to contradict his own words.


However I don't believe this would be a particularly different ability for H'el to get around. New 52 Kryptonians can see things cosmic distances, through anything but lead, and see things on the atomic scale


Combined with this his supergenius intellect if H'el actually reduced Cell to cells, he would be able tto quickly detect and figure out he was regenerating from his cells, and with his ability to psychically destroy the atoms of his enemy, could negate the regeneration.


Cell, like all genetic Saiyans, has the ability to become stronger after suffering a high degree of injury, called a "Zenkai."

The extent of this boost is variable however they can reach at least up to a 33x boost as Goku on Namek went from a power level of 90,000 to 3,000,000


Uniquely, Cell can trigger this Zenkai himself via his ability to cause himself to explode, which triggers his Zenkai when usually self-inflicted wounds don't cause Zenkai.  Speaking of which Cell can turn himself into a bomb which if touched will explode with seemingly the implication that the explosion itself would kill Gohan, not just the destruction of the planet and it's atmosphere


The efficacy of this attack against H'el depends. If Cell tells H'el what he's doing the way he does to Gohan here, then H'el can teleport Cell or himself away at will. Cell can follow him hypothetically though H'el would be able to avoid the attack hypothetically. If Cell doesn't explain what's happening unless H'el's supergenius mind can figure it out quickly if he strikes Cell the explosion should be enough to take out H'el and Cell will just regenerate. So it really depends on whether or not you think Cell would explain his ability here or H'el would figure it out. As for his general Zenkai ability, it's a pretty strong ability to have. H'el has his own way to amplify his abilities via the Sun, though it's arguable if that cancels out.

Cell can drain the matter and energy of people through his tail


If this hits H'el it should work on him, he doesn't have any known resistance to absorption.

Also with his tail, Cell has the ability to create numerous smaller copies of himself call "Cell Juniors." These are stated to have the same power and speed as him, though seem to lack all of his abilities


This is a form of duplication, a very powerful ability that I believe is Cell's best counter to things like H'el destroying his brain or brainwashing him since H'el has never been shown doing this to multiple people at once. Having multiple copies of himself would be one of Cell's biggest advantages in this fight as while I think H'el is slightly faster, Cell using multiple copies is a way to negate that advantage especially as while H'el is a skilled fighter, he's less so than Cell and wouldn't be able to very easily fight this many opponents relative to him at once without relying on bigger psionic abilities. 

Outside of biological abilities, Cell also has numerous ki techniques from the people he's created from., This includes another form of duplication, Tien's Multi-Form Technique which Cell has used to split himself into four copies


The Multi-Form Technique is a different form of duplication compared to creating Cell Juniors. The Multi-Form Cell creates exact copies of Cell with all of his abilities meaning that all can still teleport and can't be stopped by H'el telekinetically binding them. However the Multi-Form seem to share the same mind and are considered as one person in four bodies, meaning that if H'el used a telepathic attack on one, it may affect all four. With that said Duplication is a very strong ability in general, and nothing hypothetically stops Cell from using both abilities at once.

Cell has learned various forms of energy projection including the Kamehameha as shown above as well as likely has access to the Kienzan (Destructo Disk) a form of ki attack that cuts even beings stronger than you like a blade and claims have access to the Genki Dama (Spirit Bomb)


I don't think the Genki Dama would be of much help to Cell here, even if he can use it. While it would absolutely annihilate H'el if it hit him, the trick for Cell will be pinning down H'el, not overcoming his durability. The Kamehameha and the Kienzan would both be helpful abilities however because of them have homing variants that can move mid-air to catch a target via telekinesis



Which would be particularly helpful in hitting H'el. This is especially true in the case for the Kienzan which, if it hit H'el would likely damage him beyond his ability to regenerate.

In terms of counters, if H'el is prepared for these attacks, he can teleport or manuever himself such that the attacks would threaten Cell similar to what Goku did to Frieza and possibly protect himself with his Psychic Barrier in conjunction with his own regeneration


However the really dangerous part of these attacks would be the surprise factor. It's a perfectly plausible scenario that Cell launches a Kamehameha which H'el dodges with some dash to the side only for it to turn and him when he's not expecting it.

Cell can use the Solar Flare which creates a blinding flash of light


This is highly unlikely to work on H'el due to his Kryptonian nature absorbing light and which can see into the Sun itself.

Cell has the Instant Transmission technique which lets him teleport along with anyone he's touching.

Notably Cell's teleportation has a much larger range, being able to extend even into other dimensions. While this is very out of character for Cell, he could hypothetically just teleport into H'el into the otherworld for a BFR victory.

While not as strong as H'el's, Cell has his own telekinesis which he used to create an arena for his tournament


I don't think he could use this on H'el directly as if he tried to telekinetically hold H'el for instance, H'el could just overpower with his own telekinesis, though if H'el does try to build something mid-combat as a weapon, Cell could telekinetically mess with it.

Cell's regenerative fluid is also an acid weapon he can utilize


I don't believe this would be an effective weapon against H'el, as Kryptonians in pretty much all continuities resist various forms of corrosion and molecular bonds weakening



To go over their weaknesses a little bit, H'el lacks many of the conventional weaknesses of Kryptonians such as Kryptonite and Red Sun Radiation due to the nature of his creation and absorbing various forms of energy while traveling to Earth. However he possesses one of the most common psychological weaknesses of the Kryptonians; a sense of superiority over all other species, considering the Justice League outside Superman to be "a small inconvenience at best"


Also while it wouldn't come up in this matchup, he has an irrational hatred for Kryptonian Clones due to cloning being outlawed and taboo on Krypton, though ironically is himself a clone. 

Cell's creation has rendered him immune to most physical weakness from the genetic sources he was made of such as Namekian Regeneration draining one's energy or Saiyans being unable to survive in a vacuum. That said he did acquire their psychological weaknesses such as a sense of overconfidence and a desire to challenge himself for instance allowing Vegeta to hit him with his strongest attack


Also while it wouldn't come up in this fight, Cell can't absorb mechanical beings like Android 16, only biological entities.


So looking over the advantages of both fighters


H'el:
+Probably Faster
+Vastly more intelligent
+More of a serious and focused fighter
+Has numerous types of offensive hax that might work on Cell (Telepathic Attacks, Atomic Destruction, Freezing)
+Would easily be able to figure out how Cell's regeneration would work
+Has his own Healing Factor and Psychic Barriers to protect against Cell's more casual attacks
+Arguably more stamina (probably not a large factor)
+Can get stronger via Sundipping



Cell:
+Probably more powerful by at least several times
+Dramatically more skilled fighter
+Regen and Durability make him immune to any kind of physical damage from H'el
+Can duplicate to overwhelm H'el
+Varied arsenal of attacks that could maybe surprise H'el (such as the Homing Kamehameha/Kienzan, suddenly exploding, or absorbing H'el with his tail)
+Can easily resist Illusions and BFR, the two most common forms of attack from H'el, via Ki Sensing and Instant Transmission
+Higher attack and teleportation range (probably not a large factor)
+Can get stronger via Zenkai Boosts and possibly Kaioken




If you think the two characters are more relative in their stats, then this fight becomes an interesting one. I feel like this fight will be first and foremost a battle for both characters to try and figure out how to kill the other one. In a melee fight Cell would find it difficult to wear down H'el due to H'el's durability and regen while it's impossible for H'el to wear down Cell in melee due to Cell's superior durability and regeneration. Either one killing the other would most likely require one of their stronger powers.

However this has its own problem, namely both characters are comparably fast and have both barriers and teleportation. This means if they see a big attack coming at them, they could just teleport away. Cell is more likely to be able to surprise H'el with his attacks but is also more likely to try and tank H'el's attacks. 

H'el probably can't do his normal tactic of BFR or manipulating via Illusions due to Cell's Instant Transmission and Ki Sensing. But this does raise an interesting question which is whether you think Cell can manipulate H'el the way he did to Vegeta. H'el like Vegeta is an arrogant character who fixates on the superiority of his species. On the other hand H'el is vastly smarter than Vegeta, and while Saiyans are hot-blooded warriors that love to fight and test themselves, H'el is a Kryptonian from the House of El, which are scientists by nature. If Cell could manipulate H'el it would be more likely due to stirring H'el's scientific interest in Cell's bizarre biology, similar to how H'el was intrigured by the Human/Kryptonian hybrid Superboy, and if H'el got in close Cell could perhaps surprise him via exploding or snagging H'el with his tail.

For me a lot of this fight depends on how long the fight goes on and even moreso the mindset of the two fighters during it. Specifically I think it depends on when in the fight Cell decides to create the Cell Juniors or to duplicate himself. At the start of the fight H'el would have numerous ways to hypothetically defeat Cell, either by destroying/controlling his mind or possibly freezing him. The major question for me is does he find and use those abilities before or after Cell creates duplicates of himself. If he uses them when there's only one Cell, then he could potentially win the fight almost instantly. 

However H'el typically first starts with abilities that wouldn't do much of anything to Cell like teleporting people, using Illusions and Stealth to manipulate them or stalk them. This is where the character analysis portion of the battle comes in. Maybe H'el was just doing that because it was against other Kryptonians (Superman and Supergirl), and against a non-Kryptonian he would go for a more lethal attack right off the bat. Or maybe against a non Kryptonian he would be more confident and just trying to physically brawl with them. It's hard to say. 

Similarly it's important how serious Cell takes the fight. Cell is overconfident and playful but if he doesn't think H'el is a threat based on his weak level of ki, is he more likely to do something to create the Cell Juniors, would he try to physically attack with him, would he try to test him first? It's kind of hard to tell when the only non-ki based fighter Cell is seen fighting is Mr. Satan. 

If Cell does get to the point of duplicating himself, I think he would have a massive advantage. He could overwhelm H'el via similar speed, superior skill, and sheer numbers and the only real way I think H'el could get around it would be via telepathically attacking Cell's mind if they have the same mind as most of his abilities are targeted at one enemy at a time. The only other way I could see H'el beating numerous Cells would be via manipulation or teleportation bringing Cell to something he can't survive like inside a Black Hole or in front of his own attacks, but Cell might be able to resist manipulation and sense malicious intent in H'el's ki so I think this would be a stretch.

Early on I think H'el would have the advantage however if only because he's a much smarter and more focused character and would likely be able to figure out Cell's weaknesses quicker if only by scanning his molecular structure. With that said, he's never fought someone with primarily ki-based abilities and wouldn't know that his stealth wouldn't work on Cell, meaning Cell could possibly get a free attack in when H'el is not expecting it.

Finally there's the issue of both getting stronger. H'el can sundip and Cell can get stronger via Zenkai. While it's kinda impossible to tell which would get stronger this way, I think this is another long term advantage for Cell. H'el MIGHT sundip but Cell WILL get Zenkai over the course of battle basically assured. H'el gaining power requires a condition (being close to the Sun) that is definitely more specific than Cell's (being damaged) and while H'el can avoid triggering Cell's Zenkai, Cell can trigger it himself via exploding and reforming. Cell also possibly can use the Kaioken as another way of getting temporarily stronger

With all that said I think that while H'el has the advantage early on, that Cell has the advantage over the long term. H'el has numerous one-shot type abilities and is an extremely fast intelligent fighter that could kill Cell immediately. However unless H'el just thinks that not being a Kryptonian he shouldn't waste any time on Cell, and instead fights him in his usual way or gets a scientific curiosity as to how Cell works, Cell can last long enough to duplicate himself at which point H'el has no way of easily putting down Cell while Cell can overwhelm H'el or at least go through enough battle damage to eclipse H'el's speed advantage via Zenkai boosts. 


This does lead to one more scenario which is Post-Star Chamber H'el vs GT Cell.

After exposure to the Star Chamber H'el gained Chronokinetic Abilities that made him vastly more of a threat. This H'el was able to see through time


He existed within multiple timestreams at once, and fight in both with one mind


travel through time and dimensions


and was able to manifest all variants of himself into one timeline, possibly taking on an ethereal form



only being beaten by Superman freezing his "essence" into a perpetual loop of freezing and thawing after H'el was already weakened by Jor-El's containment field


He can also end universes and threaten every living being in the "omniverse" via these temporal disruptions which awoke the cosmic being The Oracle to stop him




 

In the Toei canon of Dragon Ball, Cell and Freeza in Hell prepare to fight Goku again, confident in their ability to fight him when they see him again in DBGT


Given they watched Goku fight Kid Buu in the Toei Canon, this means they are likely confident they could at least beat a Goku who was that strong


This Buu was stated to be able to destroy the Grand Kai Planet, which is portrayed as being like a Moon to the universal sized Heaven, being likely the size of many galaxies


The Star Chamber made H'el physically stronger, but definitely not that much. With that said I think H'el has this one pretty convincingly. He's naturally in multiple timelines which Cell, even if he's massively physically stronger and faster can't do anything about and H'el can just collapse the universe Cell is in via temporal disruptions or go back in time and kill Cell when he was first being created, both of which are in-character.

The only thing Cell could do to Post-Star Chamber H'el is if H'el starts the fight for some reason in just one timeline Cell could blitz and attack him with enough force to kill him before he thinks of dividing himself again. Superman did do something to H'el at one point, but this is both out of character for Cell and possibly only something Superman could do as a result of H'el being weakened by Jor-El's Contaiment Chamber given that for H'el "the normal confines of space and time mean nothing to him!"

So to sum up my thoughts:

Pre-Star Chamber H'el vs Cell Saga Cell: H'el can maybe win early on, but I think Cell would win mid to high difficulty in the long run via overwhelming H'el
Post-Star Chamber H'el vs DBGT Cell: Cell is stronger and faster, but he can't really do anything to H'el due to H'el's chronkinetic abilities, with H'el winning via hax fairly quickly. 

4 comments:

  1. This was one Hell in the Cell style fight imp and I think it was a really fun hypothetical match. I'm actually somewhat shocked this was 'only' a Verse Challenge type blog instead of an outright prediction blog, as not only is it a pretty even fight between 2 characters, but you did a really good job showing this was a crazy thematic battle as well! And I can safely say for your first Dragon Ball related Blog, you showed a clearly very impressive knowledge and understanding of the series, including not only its lore but its supplementary material which very genuinely impressed me.
    Going into this match i thought that H'el had it somewhat in the bag, as i recalled him from your Superman Series Strategy Guide as being one overpowered bastard, significantly more dangerous than anything in classic DBZ, but it seems like most of his REALLY op stuff comes from the Star Chamber, and thus made this match more fair.
    Even without the Star Chamber tho, H'el was still a very dangerous psychic warrior with a crapton of haxy sci-fi Akira powers, plus advantages in speed, variety and Especially Inteligence. Making this still very hard on Cell
    But i think something even more cool is how you showed off how Cells seemingly more limited aresnel as a Dragon Ball character, could seemingly still perfectly counter much of this, like how Despite H'el's massively impressive Kryptonian senses and ability to nullify these same senses in others Cell would still effectively have better senses for this fight due to his being somewhat based on Ki, which is something the Superman Series doesnt play around with much. There were a lot more of these from how he could use his Instant Transmission to anti BFR himself, to how he could burst away Ice, to his regeneration halting the messed up things he could do with his heat vision, and most hilariously how he could uno reverse his shrinking powers with the underrated Namekian abilities. Plus Cell had a lotta seriously damning strategies and oneshot attacks of his own, especially his MULTIPLE forms of Duplication
    This fight I think is cool in the same way as my GIR Vs Robo-Fortune Blog, where the fight depends more on the characters personalities than their actual abilities, as you say multiple times, either of them can use super broken game winning strategies and one shot attacks right out the gate, but both of them are also both Arrogant and Experimental to some degree, and could either decide to attack without a plan, or mess around at first, or use their most powerful attack out the gate to not waste time, or a few other things which really makes it seem like it could go either way.
    I thought that with his greater degree of intellect it would probably be more likely H'el would take this serious and use his winning strat first, but you made a very good point that Cell's Duplication and Gaining Power from Damage makes it so the longer the fight goes the more assured his victory becomes, basically meaning Unless H'el oneshots him with mind control or something pretty early, hes more likely to lose, and i dont see that happening the majority of the time!

    Overall Excellent work, I love when you make these kind of blogs, as I was on the edge of my bed the whole way through trying to debate this out

    ReplyDelete
  2. Fantastic Job Imp. You found a really interesting matchup, and it amuses me how much the fact their names rhyme was a factor in this blog’s creation lol. First of all, I appreciate the detail in exploring the different stat ranges they can possibly be at based on evidence from their series, and even exploring things that may be less relevant like range. I mostly just appreciate the acknowledgement that there are multiple different angles you can take when finding someone’s strength and speed, instead of just presenting one answer. And of course, finding all the comic, anime, and manga scans for these feats were much appreciated

    I know Cell much better than I do H’el, but I feel like I learned a few cool things on the DBZ side. I was impressed with some of the things you found, such as bringing up the fact that Cell can counter being shrunk with his Namekian DNA allowing him to change back to normal size. Cell’s use of Cell jrs turned out to be much more useful than I thought, considering they would be as strong as him and can counter H’el’s mind manipulation. The Zenkai boost unsurprisingly became a huge factor in this match-up and I can totally see how Cell could pull off a win.

    H’el seems like a cool, intimidating villain. I already thought he sounded intimidating in your previous Superman blogs, but reading through these comic panels gave me even more of an idea of what he is like as a character such as how he manipulates Supergirl. I think my favorite part of this blog is just the analysis of how their mindset will play a role in who wins, since there is a lot to analyze between the intelligence differences, Kryptonian traits vs Saiyan traits, and which one would likely use their most useful abilities first. I think your results seem pretty sound in the end, with Cell likely winning the first scenario, and H’el winning the second.

    Overall, this was really well done. Really good research for both characters, and I had fun reading it.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Yo, now this is a badass villain throwdown! Would love to see a fight between these two animated. I was much more familiar with Cell than H'el, having watched DBZ growing up, so this was a nice mix of the new and the familiar. The connections between these two are so strong, it feels like one could've been an inspiration for the other. You did a really great job on finding two characters so thematically similar that people would hunger over finding out who'd win in a fight and this felt like a fresh take on the classic Superman vs Goku debate.

    I also thought it was good of you to include multiple scenarios at different power levels, given these are both characters who experience significant changes over the course of their appearances within their respective series. One of the things that struck me the most about this blog during the entirety of my reading of it was how balanced this matchup felt. Every time H'el or Cell held an advantage, the other one would be revealed to have a matching advantage in the very next section. Whether it be main stats, secondary stats, or their various abilities and hax and even their one-shot tricks, it felt like one always held an edge wherever the other seemed to be lacking, or otherwise matched them pound for pound. This was consistent to the very end, where Cell looked to be the winner of the “standard” matchup while H'el took the crown in the “both at the absolute strongest” scenario.

    It was interesting to see how well-catalogued the DBZ cosmology seems to be, but most of the intriguing new bits of info for me came from H'el's side, understandably. I didn't expect psychic powers to be his bread and butter, given Kryptonians always make me think of flying bricks with heat vision and freeze breath. He gives me dark lord space wizard vibes, yet is also a physically daunting foe. The shrinking power felt so random, and countered perfectly by Cell's equally random growing power! His mind control finding such a glaring weakness in Cell's otherwise formidable defenses was probably the most shocking of H'el's powers, and to round out my random thoughts on their various abilities, I'm still a bit confused about Cell's seemingly contradictory physical weakness in his head which gets destroyed multiple times.

    Finally, your analysis of how it might go down after you listed all of their relevant capabilities. I found this to be the best and most interesting part of this blog to read, and your thorough and careful explanation of your thoughts made it quite easy to agree with you on all matters. I don't think H'el would immediately go for one of his instant-win attacks, and that time would give Cell what he'd need to win. And as for the fight with Post-Star Chamber H'el...yeah, that's a stomp. Even with Cell's improved stats, there is basically nothing he can do against that level of hax.

    Thanks for the blog, Imp, and I hope you cover more DBZ in the future!

    ReplyDelete
  4. I've said this before, but the angular style of that particular run of DC comics really makes the characters pop and pulls you right in to the world, and it was interesting seeing that in contrast to what I consider the "classic" DBZ art style. (End of Android/Cyborg to beginning of Cell saga is where the art really peaked imo)

    I'm glad you brought up the Solar System statement because it's something that's discussed and contested regularly whenever Dragonball is brought up in debates. It's one of those regularly accepted things that don't have a lot of evidence going for it, but I feel it's fair of you to include for this match.

    I also notice both of their arcs involve time travel and the solar system, the comparison is not lost on me :P

    Nor is the joke of their names rhyming, which reminds me of the DBZ Abridged pun "Cell in a Hell".

    It surprised me that Cell can actually be an even match for H'el potentially, that makes these types of matches more interesting, a refreshing change compared to most DBZ vs DC matches that usually are weighted exponentially in DC's favor, it's certainly a surprise that one of Dragonball's current mid-low tiers can actually contend with a Kryptonian.

    You always seem to take care in presenting a fair match, and it's always appreciated <3

    ReplyDelete