Monday, June 3, 2019

Worst to Best Tiers for Versus Debating

I categorize characters into 16 tiers, which are really just 8 "scales" (Local, City, Planetary, Stellar, Galactic, Universal, Multiversal, and Omniversal) mixed with being an immediate threat and a gradual threat. I wanted to make a quick fun blog talking about my least favorite to favorite tiers to versus debate typically and why.

16: Tier 3 (Immediate Multiversal Threat)
The Top 4 Tiers I semi categorize by the Tegmark Classification of multiverse types and Tier 3 roughly corresponds to a Type 2 or a Finite Type 3 Multiverse, a multiverse that includes every finite possibility or includes different physical constants (such as dimensionality) in other universes.

Does that sound really obscure? Yeah, it is. There's almost no one in Tier 3. That's partially what makes it so annoying to debate, there's so few characters to matchup here. But that's just the start of the problems.

First of all it's almost impossible to have an even match with this tier. Because the number of universes is finite, but growing exponentially that means that if a series is set even 1 second after another series, then the series that is one second later, assuming it's growing at the same rate, is going to be so much larger that in raw power it's a complete stomp. And if the rates are different then it's also going to be an exponential stomp in power unless by some cosmic miracle they happen to get in the same ballpark which is nigh-impossible statistically.

There's also a sort of general spirit in versus debates I find that you want to not privilege characters based on where or when they were made. We don't want to give preference to characters strictly because they are from older series or from newer series, because they were made in any one place. Yet we have to do that from exponential growth theories because a finite but exponentially growing multiverse is going to be cosmically bigger if it's newer meaning it's inherently going to privilege newer series that have this set up.

And that's not everything. The verse not only sets up stomps but also don't give much way around stomps. There's not really much hax abilities that start coming in generally around tier 3, the same way there is with a lot of tiers. Tiers often have abilities associated as starting to come in around this tier (though obviously some verses are very unhax for their tier and some are very hax for their tier). Tier 3 doesn't really outside of maybe quantum manipulation.

And beyond that the tier is just not very fun to think about. It's not very easy to imagine sets of universes in general, and it doesn't have the transcendent abstract imagery of tier 2 and tier 1, it's just a sort of intermediate stage that's not that impressive.

15: Tier 16 (Gradual Local Threat)
The Lowest Tier. The Tier an unarmed human would be about even with. Fights on this tier are better then the prior one because you can have some maybe interesting or funny scenarios with the terrain, with the personalities (think the standard comical fight in a live-action sitcom) but that's about it. At this low level, just having ANY combat training or experience is a massive advantage, which should tell you just how generally uninteresting the tier is here.

Granted it's usually more debatable then Tier 16 and there's no godstomps when everyone is so close in power. But because the power versatility is usually so similar, in that it's nonexistent, there's not much to actually debate. It's basically just trying to find tiny edges which is not very exciting.

There are some characters with abilities at this tier, but they are few and far between. This tier unlike tier 3 is pretty easy to debate or depict, it's just really hard to actually have fun debating or depicting since it's usually so mundane.

14: Tier 6 (Gradual Universal Threat)
The Multi-Galactic Range. This Tier is sort of like a micro Tier 3 in my views. There's not many Multi-Galactic Characters in existence, since most characters that strong usually just make the jump to universal. Likewise this tier is a bit tricky to depict, debate, and doesn't have a lot of interesting abilities.

However this tier is a bit better in that regard. The abilities on this tier do tend to be more relevant since it's not as huge stomps as tier 3, which means even if there's not usually many interesting abilities that start to emerge at this tier, the characters do have some interesting enough power rosters to use.

Likewise while fights that take place on a galactic cluster+ scale is not easily visualize-able for the standard evidence, it's far easier then the quantum multiverse as it's still dealing with physical objects, just ones that are on a macrocosmic scale.

Likewise debates on this tier, when they happen given the scarcity of characters at this tier, tend to be easier then tier 3 since the characters feats still tend to be on the lower to mid cosmic range rather then on a vague unspecified supercosmic range.

13: Tier 15 (Immediate Local Threat)
The characters that can wreck a room quickly. Roughly superhuman to room level. Equal to an armed entity from a person wearing light armor with a sword to a modern infantry with firearms.

Just as Tier 6 acts as a sort of mini-Tier 3, this tier acts as a sort of mini-Tier 16.

Fights here tend to still be a bit simplistic in tactics, but are usually more versatile, generally encompassing interesting movement based options that are basically irrelevant at higher tiers (sticking to walls, swinging from ropes etc.) and using ranged attacks for a tactical option. As such the tactics tend to be a lot more diverse and interesting to talk about.

In addition there's often a lot more punch and gravity to a tier 15 fight then a tier 16 fight, as the characters are performing superhuman feats, with or without the usage of technology that gives things a clear weight.

12: Tier 10 (Gradual Stellar Threat)
Characters that can threaten a star system, casual planet busters or large/multi planet busters.

This tier doesn't have a huge amount of fighters I find, since most people tend towards either planet busters or star busters rather then this intermediate area. These fights are often interesting since characters on this tier often have very casual forms of the abilities of characters weaker then them since they generally are presented as a lot stronger to the lower bound planet busters that said it seems like kinda of an awkward tier to write. Usually this level isn't given speeds to quickly dart between star systems, sometimes even within one star system, meaning that a fight can't really go darting blowing up lots of planets since there isn't usually that many planets to blow up in the first place.

I do like how it seems this verse tends to start affecting the really high planes, like spiritual and abstract abilities to make fights more interesting that said there isn't a huge amount of characters on this tier to really talk about.

11: Tier 2 (Gradual Omniversal Threat)
Characters with infinite physical power are here. Mathematically you can't get physically bigger then this. Adding to it, multiplying it, or raising it to a power (like adding a dimension, ie Squaring it) will change the value of countable infinity.

This is an interesting tier, as characters start gaining transcendence over physical existence meaning that their powers start getting more abstract as might be expected for characters affecting infinities areas.

The sheer scale can allow for abstract and esoteric imagery for things to get more interesting as the physics of the prior tiers starts giving way to philosophy and ontology.

Absolute Plane Abilities start really coming into play here which gives this tier a unique flavor compared to the lower multiversals.

10: Tier 1 (Immediate Omniversal Threat)
Characters here can destroy not just physical existence but conceptual existence, destroying not just being but the possibility but the potential for being. Characters here are defined by their transcendence over lower concepts mostly.

In other words, what makes this tier interesting is it sort of flips the usual versus debating paradism on it's head. Instead of asking what the character CAN do, it instead becomes a question of what the character CAN'T do.

This while hard to visualize and debate at times is unique and often requires a more thorough understanding of the character and what bounds they have rather then general versus debating. I should note all fictional characters do have SOME bounds if only that they are a fictional character. There is no such thing as an actual fictional omnipotent. That is blatantly paradoxical.

But yeah this tier has an elegance was semi-formed in the prior tier, an elegance where the character can usually do more things and resist most things so it becomes less about all their quirky abilities and more so a measure of the lesser amount of differences between them. Tier 16 is one of the most even tiers, and the other most even tier is Tier 1, where characters powers start to become very similar again.

9: Tier 13 (Immediate City Threat)
Characters that can immediately destroy a human settlement ranging from a small village to a large metropolis are sort of the classic tipping point of when a character goes from being less of a "metahuman" that is still something containable by human forces and into a demigod or a force of nature which at best a nuke can deal with and at worst can singlehandedly destroy all human civilization.

This tier is when MHS speeds start to become more common as well as when haxes start to develop. They can be found on lower tiers certainly but it seems this tier is when they start to get a bit more common and those two things can make the fights seem a lot more again like bouts between demigods or forces of nature rather then just amped humans.

To be honest while I do like this tier, I think maybe it's a bit overrated. There's a lot of verses on this tier and a lot of fights on this tier and IDK I don't find it as interesting as some people. Hard to explain why but I think it's mainly because it's not into the even sort of cosmic tier yet like a sub-planetary yet it's also clearly above some sort of mythic thing about humanity, and that's not a conceptual space that my mind grasps very much. IDK.

8: Tier 4 (Gradual Multiversal Threat)
Characters that can destroy some universes but not a full multiverse.

This is a neat tier. It's a supercosmic tier since it can destroy more then a universe, but it's not so big that it's hard to conceptualize or visualize at this point. Possibly this is because supercosmic haxes are not usually a thing on this tier. Universal haxes are a thing which are interesting to imagine, like soul absorbing a universe, or creating a mental dimension as big as a universe. But this is the lower bound multiversals who fodderize universes but aren't crazy multiversal. I like this tier, I think it's interesting if you can grasp your head around the physics and scale of things.

There's also just a lot of abilities that tend to cluster around this area, partially because it's right before the dead zone of Tier 3, but universal+ spacetime manipulation, mid-godly regen, the creation of (or powering up to) universal level entities, having multiversal scale range, this verse gives a lot of interesting abilities for crazy crazy battles that feel ultra high powerful without being too hard to understand or philosophical.

7: Tier 14 (Gradual City Threat)
Characters are strong as an army from a prehistoric hunter-gatherer squad to a modern army complete with artillery. From the room to multi-city block level. Characters that can wipe out cities with their fights overtime.

This is a good tier! Abilities that are commonplace later start to appear here as major tactical factors like flight, manipulation of the battlefield, city scale range, element manipulation, weather manipulation etc.

This tier is really good at emphasis and weight since the fights are just low enough in power that they can still be intuitively "felt" it seems, while being massively above anything likely to happen in real life.

Fights on this tier are also little masterpieces of tactics for the low tiers, since one-shot attacks are still relatively rare but the fights still have very definitive tactical elements are not mostly even like lower tiers. They can match factors common to low tier fights like surface area, armoring etc. things that are important factors in real life fights with factors that are more fantastical

6: Tier 7 (Immediate Galactic Threat)
Not too common, but this tier is a fun tier. While it's not a huge range to play in, the galaxy busters have a level of inutitive and cosmological imagery being able to fight through the constellations.

There are a lot of fun abilities that start to become common this tier, like planetary to stellar spacetime manipulation, planetary to stellar soul/mind hax, planetary creation/reality-warping, and galactic scale energy/matter abilities. Beings here really take the transition from being seemingly demigod like to godlike, and there's a majesty to the fights.

And the tactics of this tier! Fights on this tier tend to have so many cool tactical abilities just because the abilities and feats start to get really crazy and out there outside just raw power.

5: Tier 12 (Gradual Planetary Threat)
Characters whose power can significantly alter the face of the planet they are in. Basically Island to Multi-Continent Level.

This tier is rare but it's a fun one to play at. Characters here often have a good variety of abilities without being so hax that raw power becomes not the major focus. After this tier, how hax a character is usually seems to become the primary point while raw power becomes secondary unless it can stomp (and thus is treated as a hax in it's own right).

The Gradual Planetary Threat is the last tier where it seems power is the primary component of fights but where haxes and special abilities become so versatile and useful a backup that it make fights very interesting beyond just raw power.

A fight between two gradual planetary threats can be highly visually impressive with massive shifting of the planet and large displays of power while still involving interesting displays of various abilities to aid in the usage of that power.

4: Tier 11 (Immediate Planetary Threat)
One of the most common tiers. Planetoid to Planet Level fighters.

If Tier 12 is a tier where abilities and raw power work in unison where raw power is the primary tactic, Tier 11 is where abilities and raw power work in unison where abilities is the primary tactic.

Tier 11 is a very common tier, planetbusters is a common enough thing in fiction. Yet it has such diversity in abilities. Space Manipulation, Time Manipulation, Mind Manipulation, Soul Manipulation, Energy Manipulation, Matter Manipulation. All of these have dedicated users of them in the planetary tier and it seems fairly even even with the relatively hax planet busters, just because the tier is relatively even with low level haxes being common but high level haxes being uncommon.

It helps that Planet Busters tend to have similar speeds, at either MHS or Low FTL, meaning that speeds tend to be comparable and keep everyone again at a competitive range.

The fights are tactical just like the preceding tier, but in a different way, focused around various win conditions as haxes tend to be a common form of win, but not so much that raw power also can't be used for a win.

3: Tier 9 (Immediate Stellar Threat)
Starbusters.

This is a really cool and evocative tier, capable of creating the kind of cosmic events that are the biggest that most people know, supernova and black holes and the like. There's a lot of characters here yet the speeds seem to be within 2 clusters, the low FTL and the Trillions-Quadrillions FTL range that speedblitzes don't seem that common. And even despite that passive spacetime warping appears sometimes here, meaning even those aren't necessarily speedblitzes.

Besides that the verse has a sort of sneak preview version of the tier right above it, with notable abilities like control of the fundamental forces, inter-dimensional travel/range, time travel, or energy absorption. This tier is the highest tier of the lower half of the tier list and it really does feel like it, being a precursor of the cosmic and mythic abilities of the higher half of the tier list. There's a lot of majesty to fights here I feel, as not only is stellar imagery very beautiful to me, but the abilities often here tend to be quite majestic to look at as the first glimpses into proper cosmic abilities.

2: Tier 8 (Gradual Galactic Threat)
Probably the most underrated tier in my view. There's not a huge amount of characters here, but destroying multi-stellar dimensions does still happen at times.

While the tier right above is probably the transition to god level, this level feels at times the dividing line between god and demigod, the demigod awakening to godhood, cosmic yet at the same time the feats often not as immediatly absurd and crazy as the above tiers as to make them seem more elegant.

Powers that tend to appear at this stage are planetary+ matter/energy manipulation, dimension creation/destruction, minor reality-warping, all things that allow for spectacular displays but tend to appear more grounded then the bigger scale displays of the Immediate Galactic Tiers.

DC Post-Crisis Powerhouses, Full Power Base Sailor Senshi, Lower Tier Gold Saints, there are so many cool characters on this tier despite it not having that many overall.

1: Tier 5 (Immediate Universal Threats)
Have you noticed a lot of my favorite verses either max at universe level or have a lot of characters there? Sailor Moon, DC Comics, Saint Seiya, CLAMP, Divine Comedy, Undertale, Stanley Parable, Wander over Yonder, God of War, Pretty Cure, Madoka, Yu-gi-oh!, Yuki Yuna is a Hero.

The Universal Level is my favorite tier to discuss and to write. It's all an encompassing tier, where terms like reality, creation and the cosmos can be used justifiably while still remaining empirical to the senses. It's tactical and philosophical at times. It's tactics are intricate and based in the strange quicky powers and feats of each character, yet starting to become elegant by the massive versatility of a lot of the characters.

Large scale manipulation of higher planes like the spiritual and the abstract start to become apparent, universal scale manipulation of physical substances like matter, energy, space and time, mean that haxes are all cosmic, none super-cosmic and none strictly local, yet there is also a clear hierarchy of abilities complexity. Stranger abilities like causality manipulation, abstract embodiment, creation of avatars, start to manifest here and make fights way more tactical to discuss, yet at the same time they are not so strong in potency yet that they might fights all about them.

Speeds can vary to anything you want from barely superhuman to comically comically mftl, yet at the same time passive spacetime abilities, existing outside a timeline, or acasuality can also mean that there are counters to higher speed yet at the same time speeds are not yet irrelevant since physical maneuvering in space still matters here.

Tier 5 is my favorite Tier. Just in general it seems to have everything you could want in a tier.

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