How to be OP in Undertale
Local Scale Threat:
So this level would be the level of characters that would be op compared to most monsters in the Underground.
This tier would mostly be wall level, scaling off Vulkin's real lava it carries around inside itself, the Hotland monsters like Vulkin able to tank the heat of Hotland that quickly evaporated a Styrofoam cup, as well as the fact that a lot of monsters use real weapons that would be at this level like swords/spears, possibly bullets (Aaron) and also actual bombs (Tsunderplane). In terms of speed this tier has supersonic attack speed which the monsters are comparable but not equal to suggesting they would be subsonic such as Aaron sweating bullets, the Mad Dummy launching missiles at the player and the Dog using their own bark as an attack wave (sound waves obviously travel at the speed of sound).
In terms of their notable abilities, basically everyone in the Underground has astral plane attacks as well as danmaku. Manipulation of elements like fire and lightning are present, the Dogs and Temmie possess body control abilities, and getting into more hax abilities, monsters like Napstablook are intangible, the humans in the verse if you fight them have magic that let them just absolutely slaughter the monsters without causalities, most notably sealing that allow 7 mages to seal every single monster underground and which not even a universal reality-warper can break, meaning sealing is a major threat, and there's also a supergenius intellect in Alphys who can invent advanced sci-fi technology in a mostly otherwise middle ages seeming world.
Tactically you might be thinking the obvious answer here is range. After all most monsters don't have any good range feats, they seem to need you to be up close in fact, and you don't want to get up close. Trying to dodge an astral plane danmaku that move at supersonic speeds for this tier level....what kind of goof would try to go through the underground just dodging everything, am I right? I too was thinking range was the answer but there's a problem and that problem is that if you are fighting in the Underground itself, most fights happen in tight corridors. A gun might be a massively more helpful weaken then a knife in most situations, but if your opponent can't stop either with some kind of armor and you are right next to them, a gun is not much more helpful.
There are a few weaknesses the verse has. First off, and this is the big one: attack reflection. The entire verse is projectile based, fling attacks back at them and they are basically helpless as seen when Frisk caused the missiles of Mad Dummy to go back on him. Imagine someone who could just send all the danmaku pellets back. How would anyone on this tier even be able to fight them?
Beyond that monsters are notably weak to killing intent, meaning actual intent to kill is helpful here. But the biggest "normal" weakness monsters have is honestly just really high charisma builds, people who are very manipulative or otherwise good at influencing emotions. This is a core part of Undertale that you can get beat all enemies peacefully. I think if you put someone whose a really good manipulator in UT they would do incredible.
So my first counter is kind of hypothetical as this character's potential is highly dependent on their motivation, but I'm talking about a scenario where they were fully motivated and that being
Dan Hibiki from Street Fighter.
This is assuming a scenario where Hibiki thought something like the monsters helped Sagat kill his father.
Dan has moved fast enough to create afterimages and was able to punch clean through a sandbag which should put him at least this strong. Dan is also a skilled melee fighter (if not relatively skilled for the verse) and would be able to compete with almost any low non-boss monster in terms of skill. His style also famously use excessive taunts which could hypothetically enrage the more naive monsters and trick them.
However there's one notable trait that Dan has, namely that his sheer anger allows him to actually tap into the Satsui no Hado. The Satsui no Hado means literally the surge of killing intent. It also hits intangibles since it destroys the soul. In other words it is the perfect weapon to use against an Undertale Monster, like absolutely ideal.
You might be thinking "Hang on a second, when Dan tried to use the Satsui no Hado he tripped over a backpack." But that's the brilliant part. Undertale fights happen at close range and generally speaking in corridors with completely flat surfaces. It's the absolute ideal place for Dan to use the Satsui no Hado and connect.
Of course this is assuming Dan is properly motivated, if you want someone who does not need to be, you could use
Gex the Gecko from Gex.
There's no fireflies in the Undertale verse, so this is basically base Gex.
Gex is strong enough to casually swipe aside walls making him on par to superior with the normal monsters of the Underground and is fast enough to swipe away bullets with his tail which would give him supersonic reaction time.
Gex is a notably skilled martial artist and also a highly agile fighter capable of sticking to walls and jumping around, forms of movement that is unlike pretty much anyone in Undertale. I know I said agility-based fighting is not a good idea, but this surprise factor makes his agility at least somewhat notable for the verse.
More importantly, as alluded to above, Gex can reflect projectiles with his tail. This is pretty important because every attack in Undertale Tale is some form of projectile. Gex is basically a powerhouse that can do massive damage from melee attacks, can take any physical attack on this tier without falling, can react and move in ways no one on this tier can and can reflect all projectiles (IE all attacks) back to the source. That's not even including his strong intellect and hypothetical ability to manipulate via 4th wall breaking.
The only real weakness he has is his lack of killing intent and the fact that he could hypothetically be overrun by large number of monsters. If you want a character however that would even be more broken, I would suggest
an Imp from D&D.
Now I know we can all agree that Imps are the most annoying thing in the world. But a D&D Imp would be much more of a nightmare then an annoyance to the UT-verse.
Imps are comparable to low level spellcasters who can create 15 foot walls of fire and can dodge arrows up close, showing statwise he would be relative to the verse. Imps are also good manipulators, used to tricking people into evil, meaning the Imp could likely manipulate the verse especially given it's shapeshifting and stealth abilities.
Imps also have the ability to attack intangibles with their dark magic and have flight, as well as soul manipulation and mind manipulation meaning they could simply pounce on an unsuspecting prey and remove their soul.
As a being of pure abstract evil, an Imp's killing intent would be massive. And god help the verse if the Imp attacks the humans or gets to the souls Asgore has taken. Demons can grow to a higher rank if they absorb souls. An Imp could potentially take a Monsters soul for this though given the relative weakness of monsters souls it's possible this wouldn't give much of an upgrade, though it will still basically be the power increase that a Genocide Frisk gets (since that's just the upgrade of LV, which the Imp would perform plus absorbing the soul energy of the monster). And a Devil of any higher rank then Imp would require one of the god tiers of UT to stop.
City Scale Threat:
At this tier are all boss monsters, the beings that can fight Frisk fairly before End-Game, beings that of notable power for the whole of the Underground.
Beings on this level are low building level based on Frisk surviving an oven explosion of 1200 Degree Celcius which is consistent with being significantly above the Wall Level Normal Monsters as well as Undyne being able to suplex boulders. This tier is also Supersonic. Frisk is able to move comparable to speed of sound to supersonic attacks. Undyne also has a feat of quickly running a massive distance calced at supersonic and Asgore was fast and skilled enough that Undyne has to train massively just to hit him once, and sans is massively more fast then anyone else in the verse able to dodge an attack from Frisk even asleep.
This tier has many of the options the prior tier has, but has massively more hax. On the mundane side, Asgore, Toriel and implied Undyne possess fire magic that can hit the astral plane, Undyne uses energy spears she can bring up out of the ground that hit the astral plane, and the skeleton brothers Papyrus and sans can both use bone attacks that hit the astral. The spider Muffet has webs that paralyze and immobilizes even the soul. The Amalgamate Memory Head also possess intangibility.
More drastically, massive DETERMINATION allows for regen from just the soul, a form of low-godly regen is shared by Base Flowey, Undyne the Undying and the Amalgamates. This tier also has spacetime manipulation. sans is infamous for his manipulations of space and time including a form of absolute time stop so long as he doesn't move and the robot entity Mettaton has the ability to reverse time.
This verse also has manipulation of the absolute itself, Asgore being able to destroy on an absolute scale the ability to negotiate by destroying the mercy button and as mentioned above, sans can stop time on an absolute scale by refusing to act.
In terms of weaknesses, high charisma builds are less effective at this tier due to Asgore, King of the Monsters. Killing Intent and attack reflection are both still effective. It's also noted that extreme willpower can overpower the power of the Monsters regeneration meaning high willpower is highly valuable.
Also like most danmaku users, their form of attack relies heavily on area control and teleportation abilities allow a potential invader to get the drop on them and potentially kill them before they can respond which brings me to my first counter
The Mask from Dark Horse Comics.
The Mask is tough enough to endure being riddled by bullets and destroyed a concert stage by a scream, showing in power he should be roughly comparable. He is also fast enough to create a sonic boom and casually dodge shotgun blasts at point blank.
The Mask is an immensely chaotic fighter who can summon any mundane object, including whole armies out of nowhere, which no one in the verse can do anything even remotely similar and can casually teleport meaning he could just get the jump on any of the verse's defenders. The Mask also has transmutation able to transmute a balloon animal into a submachine gun (long with many other feats) meaning outside the characters who can regenerate he would be able to one-shot.
The Mask would also be able possibly counter the regen of the verse. Not only is his base willpower very high as shown by his insane levels of pain resistance but when frustrated his willpower rises drastically. Even beyond that, The Mask also has the ability to flick bullets back at people suggesting he could flick the bullets of the verse back at the source. He also has a nasty killing intent.
Even if hit, The Mask has a crazy regen factor able to come back from being turned to ash as well as manipulate reality such as being able to halt a free fall just by will.
That said you could argue some of the more haxy abilities in UT, the Mask would struggle with. For a character who can actually out-hax the tiers I would suggest
Ares from Xena: Warrior Princess and Hercules: The Legendary Journey
Ares is comparable to Hercules in raw power who could move large boulders and break entire rock formations making him comparable in power to the verse, and is comparable in speed to Hercules and Xena who could casually dodge close range arrows. While he's slower he probably wouldn't be able to be blitzed by the verse.
Ares can turn invisible at will meaning the verse would have an immense difficulty even finding him, let alone hitting him given his intangibility and teleportation.
Ares would also completely confound the verse with his mind hax and illusions (able to create an illusion across the surface of the entire moon). Ares can casually brainwash the verse's fighters against each other or casually transmute them.
Against the regen users, Ares can use his soul hax to stop them. Not that he would really need too given his level of time hax. Ares was completely immune to a time stop stronger then even sans' and himself can stop time, bfr opponents across time, time travel and time loop. It would be absolute child's play for him to lock the entire underground in a time loop while messing with them from another dimension.
He also has a godly level of knowledge and killing intent as the god of war, to top all that.
That said you could argue his weakness towards Pacifism means some of the verse's characters, most notably Toriel might be able to stop him if he actually appeared. It would be a long-shot but sure. If you want a character that would be even more broken in the verse, you could use
Bella Noche from Adventure Time.
I should note I don't really know Bella Noche's raw power since the justification I saw for it seems like it could just be referring to the threat level of her particular ability rather then her power level. That said her speed is right for the tier as she should be comparable to early Finn the Human who avoided Lemongrabs Soundsword and the Business Men who built a bridge in under a second.
Bella Noche can release anti-magic over several kilometers. All monsters in Undertale are literally made of magic. This would instantly existence erase every single being in the Underground.
Her anti-magic is strong enough that she was a threat to planetary magic-users meaning she would be absolutely invulnerable to any being on this tier of UT and attempting to physically touch her for any monster would existence erase her.
Universal Scale Threat:
At this tier is End of Game Frisk, Chara and Flowey after absorbing six or more souls and the Annoying Dog who created the Undertale-verse by barking into a text to speech device. Six Souls Flowey was able to destroy and reality-warp the universe. Chara is also implied to have done a similar fear. 7 Souls Flowey, Asriel Dreemurr could destroy a universe with a tiny portion of power, suggesting the verse is universal to low multiversal.
Frisk's soul which Asriel can move comparable too, was able to move comparable to Asriel's universe-destroying wave, which would likely require speeds at least trillions of times the speed of light, possibly higher.
This verse in terms of hax, is notable in it's reality-warping and spacetime-warping on an absolute universal scale able to reformat the entire game universe. Asriel Dreemurr was able to destroy most game options with his strongest attack.
Chara also possesses a form of abstract existence, and End of Game Frisk Pacifist Route is powerful enough to survive Asriel's laser, to bring even their soul back together with their sheer willpower. Frisk was also able to create physical things out of sheer determination.
In terms of weaknesses, killing intent would be helpful against 6-7 Souls Flowey but not very helpful against anyone else. Massive amounts of willpower would probably be still helpful to overpower the DETERMINATION of the verse's fighters and as alluded to above, inter-dimensional combat is something the verse hasn't shown, generally still fighting at relatively small range.
This brings me to my first counter
Raven from DC Comics. Raven in her stronger forms can easily get into the universal range by scaling to her demonic siblings and being stronger then 10% Trigon who could still casually a universe. Her reaction speed is also enough to react to beings like Superboy who could move at quadrillions of times the speed of light meaning she won't get blitzed.
Raven has powerful darkness manipulation invisibility and stealth to avoid detection and then enter the souls of her opponents. She can even teleport into their souls from other dimensions they can't reach. And in there comes her big advantage. Raven is an empath that can reach souls....6-Souls Flowey was beaten by the souls absorbed turning against itself, and Asriel himself was beaten by Frisk reaching into Asriel's soul and reaching the souls of their friend.
Even if detected, Raven could simply stop time and teleport to re-do it. Raven can also use soul hax and mind hax against Frisk and Chara.
That said you could say that Raven is fragile since one good strike would kill her and she would have difficulty affecting Chara and the Annoying Dog. While her powers are an amazing counter to some of the God Tiers, for a more consistent counter you could use
Palkia from Pokemon.
Palkia is able to casually warp a universe sized dimension and scales to far above the Elygem which could broadcast images of 5 whole galaxies into a person's head requiring speeds likely trillions of times the speed of light.
Palkia is the abstract embodiment of space. This is not much of a problem you might think as absolute attacks can hit abstract beings, but the problem comes not from being abstract but from the abstract concept of what, in this case space. Palkia can manipulate space on a multiversal scale, and would be able to easily send any of the danmaku attacks back at the users and be able to warp and hit them from other dimensions far outside their normal range and even above their maximum range.
It's notable that Palkia is only weak against fairy and dragon types, which do not exist in Undertale.
Palkia also has a godly level of pocket reality manipulation and spatial bfr + sealing, suggesting he could throw any of UT's god tiers into pocket dimensions and seal them. Recall that it took Asriel to break even the seal on the Underground let alone the seal and space manipulation of Palkia, embodiment of space itself.
Palkia would also absolutely be able to hit Chara as it's able to hit it's rival Dialgia the embodiment of time itself.
However being able to do this on a much better scale I would suggest my ultimate counter
Shirley from the Nickelodeon Multiverse.
Shirley was casually above the power of fairies who could warp the rules of the universe, and above even High Tier Fairy Jorgan Von Strangle who could casually warp away a bomb capable of destroying two universes. Of note is that Shirley was also going to warp two separate two universes into his own dimension and it's implied it only was going to take time so that he could give his friends time to enjoy their remaining time in their dimensions. Shirley also scales to the fastest tech of Jimmy Neutron: Boy Genius which was capable of traveling to a planet in another universe. Even in a day, this would be over 17 trillion times the speed of light. As such Shirley would have god tier levels of power and speed for the verse.
It's notable that most God Tier fighters in UT only use a few types of attacks normally and given Shirley's immense ability to adapt, he would adapt a counter to these few moves and would leave them with very few options. That's assuming the fight would last very long.
Shirley can attack from other dimensions where the UT cast can't properly can't counter attack and can simply absorb their abilities as he did to Jimmy's intellect or to the magic of the fairies. The supergenius intellect of Jimmy is massively beyond the shown intelligence of anyone in UT, and the magic of the fairies has been stated to affect even the mathematical laws of the universe to the point that a fairy could make 2+2=Fish. This level of control of universal laws shows he could affect abstract concepts like Chara.
Shirley is not only massively more versatile then the verse but can simply attack from outside their range and absorb any of their powerful abilities and even if he does have to fight them he can quickly adapt to any of their usually limited movesets.
However the real greatest point of Shirley is his immersion ability. Fairy Magic can enter and exit fictional worlds at will as shown when Timmy enters the fictional world of his superhero The Crimson Chin. It's possible then he could exit the rules of the game "Undertale" and become immune to their reality-warping.
And that's how to be OP in the Undertale-verse.
This was a surprise and an excellent choice for this blog series! I don't feel like I could call myself a true UT fan without playing the game but I've seen people play it from start to finish plus some of my friends are huge fans so I at least have enough knowledge to work with. As soon as I saw this was a UT strategy guide I began to wonder how you'd tackle this bizarre, wacky, and surprisingly powerful verse and you didn't disappoint!
ReplyDeleteAttack reflection and interdimensional attacks really felt like cheating, which in these sorts of blogs is very very good! My rule of thumb with these blogs is if you make me say "This is OP!" while I read them, then you succeeded. And you succeeded many times here! Bella Noche blew me away in such a simple manner. I did not know about that magical nature of the monsters, that's a tremendous weakness if you can exploit it like she does. It may seem like a small thing but Ares' mental manipulation also stood out to me, attacking the mind and soul seem like good avenues here. Gen IV box legendaries continue to be OP, but I'm still always surprised when a Pokemon pops up in your strategy guides, especially in the god tiers!
Shirley really takes the cake though. He and Bella were the only characters here I didn't know and had never heard of and they were the two most amazing counters on the list! Based on your thorough description of Shirley's OPness, I find myself very curious as to how he was stopped in whichever show/movie he was in, because he just doesn't seem fair! And in a blog like this, as I said before, that is a verrrry good thing ;)
Thanks for the blog, it was an entertaining and very surprising read. You know anytime Dan "The Man" Hibiki comes up right outta the gate, things are gonna be wild. Looking forward to the next one!
MAN, I've been patiently waiting for another one of these for a bit now and WOW did this deliver. Undertale is not a verse I would want to counter, the stats are so strange for the most part, especially city scale ones but you did such a good job, You Used Bella Noche, Even I wouldnt have thought of that, thats crazy! I think my favorite counters were The Mask, Dan, Raven and Shirley! I was also impressed at the research with the latter especially! and the fact you considered the Environment of the verse so throughly is a real sign to your level of expertise!
ReplyDeleteAlso on a minor note, i respect Pokemon more now thanks to you
Great blog Imp! This is certainly an interesting verse to cover and there are a lot of great choices here. I am also glad to be at least somewhat familiar with all the verses here.
ReplyDeleteMy favorite choice has got to be Shirley, because I really didn't expect him at all. He is so perfect though! His adaptability and power absorption abilities are so op. When you add on top of that the implications of fairy abilities, then he is hard to stop (I'm realizing the Jimmy-Timmy specials really upgraded both verses)
Besides that, I am happy to see Palkia and Raven; dimensional hax and empath abilities seem useful for high tiers. Gex and Dan were unexpected but welcomed choices for the low tiers (interesting that charisma is so important). I also appreciate you using a bit of Undertale humour in the beginning.