The Difference between Marvel and DC

 

Note: This is NOT an attempt to say one side is better or anything. I am very un-tribalistic in general and really don’t care to snipe at series I don’t like. And it’s not like I dislike either of these two, though I would be very obviously lying if I didn’t claim to favoring one by far. Hopefully that will not bias me to the point I can’t answer the question.

I was asked a few times why DC is one of my favorite series ever and Marvel I’m only ambivalent towards. I don’t think that’s a trivial question, as on the surface the two seem relatively similar. There’s something different about DC and Marvel. If I compare their best stories, broadly speaking on the same level of quality, or if I compare their worst stories, which again broadly speaking I would say are on the same level of quality, there still feels something different about the two. I wanted to try and identify what is different about the two series. 

A lot of people say it’s because some variation of Marvel being about humans, and DC being about gods, and I have to disagree with this assessment. At best it seems an over-simplification that leaves out important details and at worst it seems misleading as it suggests that the difference is so simple, and that someone only a fan of one would be so because of that reason. That said the actual reason is somewhat hard for me to articulate, and what I’m writing now might only be a vague approximation of the truth of the matter but hopefully it shall be helpful.

The first that sort of really caught my attention is their usage of mythology. Thor, the actual Norse deity, is one of the primary heroes of the Marvel Universe and in general Norse mythology is more closely entwined with the series then the more commonly used Greco-Roman mythology. In contrast in the DC Universe, Wonder Woman, one of the primary heroes gets her powers from the Greek gods, as does Shazam. Superman is called the “modern Hercules” and the first flash had the “speed of Mercury”.

Now obviously both DC and Marvel have expanded to have both Norse and Greco-Roman mythology in their complete roster, however they put different mythologies, very different mythologies at the forefront of their series. That suggests a particular affinity, although whether the presence of these characters at the forefront influenced the series, or they were pushed to the forefront because of their affinity with it, or there was some kind of feedback loop incorporating both etc. is unknown.

If you look into Greek Mythology one of the things that will be noticed very quickly is their deities were often embodiments of a domain of the natural world. Ares was not just a being associated with war, he was war itself, being wherever war was, and everything that was war was him. Thanatos was death itself and when he was bound, so was death stopped everywhere. Poseidon was not just the lord of the sea, he was the sea itself. The Roman Deities were somewhat more abstracted, being more often the embodiments of virtues rather than natural phenomenon but were similar in that they WERE their domains. The Lares, for instance were the ancestral gods of each family representing the familiar virtues of the household. 

This was absolutely not the case for the Norse Gods. Odin was the god of warfare and wisdom, yet he was neither war itself (in fact he rarely was on the field of battle, for he sent Valkyries to bring up the fallen), nor was he wisdom itself (as he had to sacrifice his eye to gain more wisdom). He was a being that had control over those domains. Freya was a goddess of war, as well as a goddess of love, beauty and fertility. Yet she wasn’t any of those domains itself. Loki was a god associated with trickery, deception and fire, yet when he was chained below those things didn’t disappear from the world. In fact there is a myth where Loki is challenged to an eating contest and loses because while he ate his half at the same time as his opponent, his opponent was actually Fire itself and burned all the food and the bones to nothing (the same myth contains many such challenges where the Norse Gods struggled because they were secretly put into competition with abstract concepts like Thor trying to wrestle an old woman who was secretly old age itself). This is taken to its metaphorical extreme in how, unlike the Greco-Roman deities, the Norse Deities are actually fated to and can die.

Why I find this interesting is that this is also how Marvel and DC depict their literal gods (though not all their cosmic entities). The Marvel Deities are physical entities existing on some physical world far off in the cosmos. If you had a sufficiently faster than light spaceship one could fly to Marvel Asgard just as they use the bifrost to travel easily between such worlds. Conversely in the DC universe the Gods are abstractions existing in the sphere of the gods, and not even running past the speedforce barrier can get you there. 

Symbolically, note how Marvel takes place in settings closer to our own, with cities like New York. Conversely DC primarily exists in imaginary lands meant more as representations; Metropolis, Gotham, Themiscyra. This builds to my thesis on the difference between the two; Marvel Comics focuses on the characters as hypothetical people primarily while DC Comcis focuses on the characters as archetypes embodied. Marvel Comics is realist (focusing on the real) while DC Comics is idealist (focusing on the idea). I should reiterate that neither is better or more valid then the other and both companies have made great stories and terrible stories. 

Scott McCloud in Making Comics divides comic creators and writers into 4 camps (though he and I both emphasize that these are not strictly defined lines, people have a bit of all and change their proportions over time, this merely is a denotation of tendencies), based on two metrics; an emphasis on the artistic tradition and on artistic revolution or subversion and art as art or art as simulation for reality. That leads to these 4 positions.

Classicists: Artistically Traditional and Art as Art: Those that seek the transcendant beauty of art beyond mundane life, the experience beyond reality. 

Animist: Artistically Traditional and Art as Simulation of Life: Trying to create something lively and full of heart, putting content (character and story) before anything else

Iconoclast: Artistically Revolutionary and Art as Simulation of Life: Trying to seek out truth and honesty, regardless of how ugly it is, in art

Formalist: Artistically Revolutionary and Art as Art: Those who like to experiment with the medium’s form and style, pushing what the medium is capable off as a medium.

While the distinction between the artistically traditional and artistically revolutionary is not wholly important here, as both Marvel and DC have had traditional and revolutionary periods (though Marvel arguably more towards the revolutionary and DC towards the traditional as Marvel first gained popularity by acting in subversion to DC’s traditions), it is the second one that I feel is the heart of Marvel and DC’s differences.

DC focuses primarily on art as art while Marvel primarily focuses on art as simulation of life. What makes this really sort of stick with me is the Formalists. Marvel has a few characters prominently that break the fourth wall, most notably Deadpool but in terms of actual experimentation with the medium itself, that is a huge part of DC’s upper echelon. The Monitors, the Endless even the Presence to some extent are textualized as metafictional and this has only been more noticeable overtime with things like The Gentry. DC is far more interested in metafictionality then Marvel is it seems, which would make sense with the division I suggested as Formalism is an Art as Art philosophy.

This also is attractive to me to be honest because it explains my own tendencies. I am a Classist (with admittingly some Animist tendencies) and I feel like this explains my own resonance towards DC. I very much like the idea of characters as symbols and concepts abstracted because I seek that kind of transcendent experience.

I have made the analogy before that Marvel at its best is like Shakespeare and DC at its best is like Dante. It was said by T.S. Eliot the world is divided between Shakespeare and Dante, there is no third. Shakespeare had an incredible ability to capture the human psyche in his writing, to capture the drama and the human experience in all its painful nuances. Dante on the other hand had an almost supernatural ability to see a reality deeper and fuller then the human reality, and to relate man with the rest of the cosmos. That’s how I see Marvel and DC at their best. 

If I was to try and sum up the difference between Marvel and DC in a simple way I would say:

Marvel wants to ILLUMINATE the human experience

DC wants to TRANSCEND the human experience

Could Sailor Saturn have stopped Sailor Galaxia

There is a common misconception about the last arc of Sailor Moon that Sailor Galaxia killed Sailor Saturn. However while that battle was VERY close to happening, it never actually happened. What really happened was Hotaru sensed her adopted mother Setsuna being attacked by Galaxia and flew off in a rush to help her, not even transforming, only to fly accidentally in the path of Galaxia's Star Seed Steal. 

What if an alternate reality occurred. Hotaru had transformed into Eternal Sailor Saturn before flying to Charon Castle orbiting Pluto, only to see firsthand Galaxia killing her adopted mother Sailor Pluto.

Before we figure out what would have happened let me give a quick introduction to the two fighters.

Sailor Galaxia is the Sailor Senshi of Destruction and Solitude. She is the bearer of the Saphr Crystal, the ultimate force of destruction, able to reduce things in existence back to it's primordial star seed. She is feared throughout the galaxy as the Golden Queen. Her coming heralds destruction. Merely her appearing on a planet can turn it into a barren wasteland only Sailor Senshi can survive. It is noted that the planets under her control are worlds of death where neither the living or the dead can maintain. 

Galaxia's primary attacks are Galactica Inflation, creating an aura of dark lightning around her strong enough to equal Eternal Sailor Moon's strongest attack and the even stronger Galactica Superstring creating a wave of cosmic energy powerful to threaten even Eternal Sailor Moon, which is highly impressive given the Silver Crystal of Sailor Moon is a crystal that protects and preserves, the ultimate force of life. Her ultimate attack is her most famous. By pointing at something, she can steal it's star seed, reducing it to nothing. She can do this to many entities at once, even to whole worlds. 

Beyond this Galaxia has more powers. Her power warps the spacetime continuum and can erase a future. She can hear thoughts, even so far as to hear Usagi's thought from thousands of lightyears away. She has enhanced senses, can attack the mind of her foe in their dreams, and can manipulate the star seeds in her control to recreate entities as loyal to her. 

Sailor Saturn is the Soldier of Death and Rebirth. She appears when a Chaos-Spawn would threaten the universe and resets all life to zero, such that she is referred to as the Messiah of Darkness. She is primarily a spirit, the Saturn Spirit which can incarnate a body and a soul in a time. In the Modern Era she incarnated as Hotaru Tomoe and joined with the Senshi of the Solar System. The Saturn Spirit can incarnate a new body and soul at any time, and Saturn can fight normally as merely a soul. 

Saturn wields the Silence Glaive, the scythe of death which paralyzes and harmed even Pharaoh 90 which absorbs all energy and matter. With it she can cast Death Reborn Revolution which creates dark tendrils that paralyze and draw things to be crushed inside her negative aura. However her ultimate ability is the Silence, where she lowers her silence glaive completely releasing the aforementioned "Silence". The Silence ends all life to be born again. This technique kills her, though she can cause herself to incarnate again at will. This technique was powerful enough to reduce the tau world to "nothingness".

Beyond this she has a forcefield technique called "Silent Wall" and can create a distracting mist and some form of vortex with "Silence Glaive Surprise". She also has the ability to heal.

So could the Messiah of Darkness kill the Golden Queen?

In Terms of Raw Planet Power, Sailor Galaxia would completely overpower Sailor Saturn. The Saturn Crystal is relatively powerful, but it is not as raw powerful as the Saphir Crystal, equal to the Silver Crystal. That said the Saturn Crystal is relatively hax. While Galaxia is very high in power, she has no known paralysis resistance, and the slice of the Silence Glaive or the Death Reborn Revolution should theoretically serve to kill her. She is also a lifeform. If Sailor Saturn released the silence, which she would be hesistant to do, not wanting to hurt her new Earthly friends, then it would theoretically end Galaxia's life and the Saphir Crystal would have to be reborn along with everyone else.

Sailor Galaxia's two named attacks would tear though Saturn with raw power. However they would only be able to destroy Hotaru's body. While the Golden Queen can make a world inhospitable for the living and the dead, the soul incarnated by the Saturn Spirit is particularly tough and would be able to fight on. That said Galaxia's star seed steal would remove the Saturn Crystal and one-shot Hotaru, body soul and spirit. 

Galaxia's secondary abilities would give her a massive advantage over Saturn. Galaxia's enhanced senses would allow her to see right through the Silence Glaive Surprise and it's unlikely that even the Silent Wall could stand up the power of the most destructive crystal, the Saphir Crystal (also Galaxia can literally walk through Usagi's barriers, suggesting she could do the same with Hotaru). Meanwhile Galaxia can read Saturn's thoughts, knowing her tactics. Since this is right after Galaxia took the Star Seeds of the Outer Senshi it is also completely possible for Galaxia to create the Outer Senshi to fight for her, which would force Hotaru to fight her adopted mothers, exploiting Hotaru's good nature.

The most likely scenario if Sailor Galaxia and Sailor Saturn fought is Galaxia would one-shot her with her star seed rip as that is Galaxia's preferred tactic. However if Galaxia delays, Saturn would have a chance of catching her off-guard.

Ways to avoid a speedblitz

Ah, Speed. The notorious stat. It seems like nothing unbalances matches more then speed. However, I think people shouldn’t assume that speed advantage means a fight will necessarily be a speedblitz. There ARE ways to avoid a speedblitz without comparable speed.

0: Just tank it:

Ok this is sort of the obvious one so I’m not including that in the actual list. Obviously if your opponent can’t do any damage at all to you, then being massively faster isn’t going to help them. Often this is not so much physical durability, as it is having a non-physical form meaning your opponent literally can not affect you at all.

1: Passive Powers:

If you passively emanate the heat of the sun then it doesn’t matter if your opponent is faster if they don’t have the requisite durability, they can’t get close. Generally, such forms of passive powers are actually sub-optimal though since generally the speedster will notice and figure out some kind of ranged attack (if they don’t have one handy). Better are passive haxes, like passive mental manipulation. If you brainwash everyone in a planetary diameter passively, then an opponent with no knowledge but much faster will likely dash in and get trapped by your passive hax.

Perhaps most famously is passive spacetime warping, as such warping depending on the potency compared to the speedster’s speed advantage could allow the slower fighter to fight as if on a relatively even speed basis, allowing them to use their active abilities.

2: Pre-Cog

Pre-Cog is more of a partial counter, as if the speed gap is massive it can’t really compensate. That said a highly developed pre-cog can provide a counter to a lower level speed blitz by giving information on how to move to avoid strikes. Even greater then this would be knowing the future or being given information by your future self.

On a related note, a cosmic level intellect capable of knowing every possible scenario or most of them would act like a pre-cog by alerting the slower combatant of the probability of success of every course of action

3: Existing in multiple places at once

This isn’t a speed, but it does certainly help against speed. Some character exists in multiple universes at the same time meaning if one of them, or perhaps more accurately one part of them is blitzed, the others can still act and the faster character would not be aware of their existence until relatively too late. Duplication in general, as an activated ability, while it can’t initially stop a speedblitz, can quickly overwhelm the faster character depending on the potency of the duplication and the degree speed difference.

4: Time Travel + Acausality

If a character is unaffected by past actions and is able to time travel then it is wholly possible for them to go back in time and help their younger self resist a blitz, essentially duplicating across time. This can be done to any arbitrary space and time, meaning it can be used to protect pre-emptively against a speedblitz.

5: Existing outside spacetime

Complex one. Speed is (Change in Space)/(Change in Time). Characters that do not exist in spacetime functionally don’t have a speed, as neither can change and a speedster would not theoretically be able to blitz an entity that does not exist in any place of space or any moment of time. Not this only applies if the character is currently outside space and time. If they manifest physically in spacetime, then they would spontaneously gain speed by necessity.

Note, most verses that claim a character is outside spacetime unfortunately contradict this by depicting the character experiencing a change between a relative past, present and future which requires a time. One could theoretically resolve this contradiction by positing multiple temporal dimensions, though this is just speculation. So long as a character can experience change as opposed to a timeline existence where all things are, then it is possible for them to be blitzed though it can be much harder if said entity can exist when they wish obviously.

Perhaps it would be most accurate to say, that a character that physically exists outside spacetime, but whose consciousness exists within spacetime is essentially like the first point, while characters who both physically and consciousness wise are outside spacetime don’t have a speed and so therefore can not be lower speedwise then any character.

Considering Absurd Claims

This is my 150th blog on blogger and so I wanted to discuss something that I have been considering something for a long time, something really important.

Sometimes in debating, versus otherwise, your opposition will make an argument you find completely absurd. This causes people in general to become dismissive immediately, something which seems to me disadvantageous.

So long as it can be agreed that the majority is not always right, there must always be the possibility that something believed by the minority is true regardless of the fervor of the majority's belief or the degree of commonality of the concept.

It seems to me that rationally speaking, the more absurd a claim seems, the more it would behoove the listener of the majority to listen to the reasoning behind it, for intellectual curiosity and purely to see if it is indeed the case. Why not? The more popular one's view is, the more a position of implicit strength the individual is. The more strange and absurd a claim, the more surely the speaker must have some reason to go so against the tendency of the majority.

This goes to it's negative extreme that I most find to my distaste when people dismiss information or even a concept purely on the notion that it goes against the intuition. For us in the versus community, this naturally would apply to versus concepts and information.

But what am I even talking about, concretely speaking? Allow me to give an example with a verse I really like.

Let us say that someone presents the view that Batman scales to the high level justice league members like Superman based off a showing or two. I would view it thus to my duty, if I wish to argue against this to express why this seems like clearly an outlier to me, I would have to explain rationally this, because I could not dismiss this because "obviously Batman is not as strong as Superman." This is an argument purely on the grounds that something is "absurd" which itself implies only that the listener finds it absurd, a statement of subjective view which has no persuasive power besides what the initial speaker wishes to give the listener's views. Claiming that the majority believes something, also is a faulty argument, an appeal to popularity fallacy. For the record I don't actually think Batman scales to Superman. That was just an example.

I will see this all the time on versus sites, with people dismissing the information presented purely out of disbelief that the conclusion is correct.

Perhaps I have some bias here. I find it very easy personally to accept seemingly counter-intuitive information if given evidence. It is perhaps because of that reason that I find it so incredibly annoying. You can ask me for a reason for any of my beliefs and I will present you evidence. You can disagree with the evidence, that's fine, we can discuss that. But simply stating the opposite is not a argument. Your opinion does not carry ANY intrinsic meaning unless you can provide information saying that exact thing.

I am willing to listen to people give their reasoning for any claim they wanted to make, no matter how absurd, even if they are completely wrong. After all, if they are wrong then you can dissect their reasoning with evidence if you know what their reasoning is. And their is perhaps the chance that they are actually right or at least have an argument that will make you reconsider your own position. Just the other day on Youtube I saw a video actually arguing the merits of the much maligned live-action cat in the hat film and I must confess it was actually a very interesting argument. 

That is what I'm saying more then anything. If something seems absurd, be willing to hear the arguments and consider them as possibly being correct before jumping to a conclusion. This to me is very important, because it ties to the root of all debate. If we are to find truth, then we must be willing to acknowledge that our intuitions and our preconceptions might be wrong. The more people believe their intuitions are unchallenge-able, the more we are restricted from potentially finding truth.

Top 10 Mythological Deities

Just a little fun idea, my top 10 favorite mythological deities. This list does not include deities from major modern religions. I don't know that many mythologies so don't expect a huge reference pool.

10: Nephthys

Nepthys is underrated as a Goddess. She is the sister of some of the biggest names in Egyptian Mythology; Osiris, Set and Isis and archaeological evidence suggest she was as important then them though her role is more mysterious. Nephhys was often paired with her sister Isis as twin representatives of feminine power. Nephthys was paradoxically a mothering nurturing force, often depicted breastfeeding the infant Pharaoh and watching over the Pharaoh as moonlight over the forces in the darkness but was also a destructive force that could incinerate the enemies of the Pharaoh. What's interesting to note is when Set was being a villain, the lord of the desert and sandstorms and chaos, Nepthys was not with him. But when Set was being noble such as helping Ra slay Apophis every night, it was then she would be depicted with him, as his wife. As such there is some element of the civilizing power of the feminine within Nepthys, turning the primary villain of the Egyptian pantheon into a more noble force.

9: Quetzalcoatl

The Aztec Gods can seem relatively alien and strange these days, though in some respects they have a very interesting duality to them all. Tezcatlipoca for instance while the god of night, jaguars and strife was also the patron of slaves and sought vengeance on their behalf against cruel masters. Quetzalcoatl is another one of these paradoxes. The "feathered serpent" is at once a creature of the ground, a serpent, and a creature the sky being a feathered flying being. Even more surprising is Quetzalcoatl's nobility even to a contemporary moral standard. Some sources even suggest that he opposed human sacrifice which would be very strange for an Aztec God. Lord of the Star of Dawn seems to be some embodiment of the spirit of nature and it's internal paradox.

8: Freyja

Freyja is a goddess cut in the ancient Ishtar mold of being a goddess both of love, sex, fertility but also of war and death. Freyja was a member of the Vanir who waged was with the Aesir. Freya and her twin brother Frey were both sent to live with the Aesir in exchange for peace. Freyja's Vanir origin are perhaps where her domain as goddess of love come from while her Aesir domain is possibly where her Goddess of War side comes from. Freyja is one of the most interesting of these dual goddess of love and war types goddesses I've seen because most of the others seem purely impulsive (like Ishtar going from lovey and wanting to sleep with Gilgamesh to Hateful and Violent when he rejects her) whereas Freyja seems to not particularly like war and do so out of necessity. 

7: Ra

Ra is the Lord of the Egyptian Pantheon (generally) and represents the all ruling Sun. Ra in some depictions is close to omnipotence having created himself out of nothing and forming the other concepts from parts of him. What makes Ra interesting is just how many aspects and forms he has, such as Ra-Atum the creator, Ra-Horakthy the Avenger, and so on. 

6: Sekhmet/Hathor

Sekhmet was originally the eye of Ra sent by him to punish the mortals, but her bloodlust became so insatiable that she could not be stopped. She is a merciless goddess of warfare and vengeance. She threatened everyone until a clever plan was hatched to stop her. Large amounts of wine disguised as blood were fed to her until she became so drunk she could no longer continue to fight and returned peacefully to Ra's side where he turned her into Hathor, the peaceful goddess of love, healing and generally everything unwarlike so Sekhmet would not go on a rampage. Best way I can describe it is...

Top 10 Anime Redemptions

5: Xochiquetzal

Contrary to most Aztec deities, Xochiquetzal actually had a fairly simple role in Aztec Mythology. She was a goddess of feminine sexuality, beauty and childbirth. Xochiquetzal for her limited role is quite the mystic goddess, seen as a patron of artists, of the mysterious appeal of the feminine that draws the males. She is also the patron of butterflies, starting that association early, and is the mother of Quetzalcoatl which is neat.

4: Prometheus

Prometheus is a noble figure that does not get the like he deserves :( He used to. Back a few hundred years ago Prometheus was the archetypal symbol of standing against tyranny. He gave Humanity fire, the power that would allow them, in the mythology itself, to rival the gods. Zeus chained him up, and had a vulture eat out his internal organs every day to regenerate at night. Zeus offered to free him if he would use his foresight to tell him who would surpass and surplant Zeus as King of the Gods. But Prometheus every day would not tell Zeus what he wanted to know, no matter what tactic he tried to use. Prometheus is a symbol of the nobility of man in some cases. 

3: Venus

Note, I like the Roman Venus over her Greek counterpart Aphrodite as the Roman Venus was often much nicer. After all the Romans traced their ancestry back to the legendary Aeneas, son of Venus. Venus was born when the genitals of the sky primordial Uranus was castrated by his son the Titan King Saturn and fell into the ocean the foam creating the goddess. She was the sole goddess feared by Jupiter, king of the gods, himself, as even he was susceptible to the pulling of love as shown by his many number of children. Venus is the representative of love itself, and her aspects represented the many forms of love even the celestial love.

2: Athena

Athena is the patron of the civilized things. The crafts, the arts, strategy, architecture. More broadly Athena is wisdom, she is the embodiment of the human consciousness, the logos that would later be discovered to be so preciously divine. Athena is the human reason that creates civilization. Athena is the nobility of humanity thus to me. Despite being a virgin goddess, Athena unlike her half-sister Artemis seemed fond of men and was the patron of male heroes. This is why she is often used as symbol of freedom and democracy. She is also on a more narrative sense by far one of the nicest Olympians and I rarely ever see anyone mention it. People are quick to talk about how Hades is surprisingly nice because he only RARELY did things that were mean towards humanity. The only times Athena did something of that accord was possibly Arachne and Medusa, and even some versions of the stories suggest both Aranche and Medusa are much to blame for what happened to them. To give an idea of Athena's niceness let me compare two stories. Her Half-Sister the also Virgin Goddess Artemis was bathing and the male hunter Actaeon ran across her. Enraged she turned him into a stag and had his own dogs eat him alive. Conversely when Athena was bathing and the male Tiresias came across her, he was stuck blind and upon learning that he accidentally had done so gave him the gift of foresight. Also just as circumstance, a lot of her stories are really entertaining.

1: Isis

Isis, the Egyptian goddess of motherhood, magic, feminine power, wisdom. Isis is like the ideal mix of several entities on this list. To secure kingship for her husband Osiris and their son Horus Isis managed to trick even the nigh-omnipotent Ra, making a serpent out of clay and his drool, and then using that serpent to bite him (possible because it too had Ra's power). Ra could only relieve the snake bite with Isis' help if he told her his true name giving her the control of the universe. Isis serves in all stories about her as a devoted mother and wife, while also being a competent and mystically powerful goddess. She was so popular that during the Roman Empire, when most of the gods were being forsaken, the cult of Isis still prospered across the empire. It is well known that I am a fan of the magical girl genre, a genre about the intersection of femininity and mysticism, the unique relationship of these two things, and Isis represents that intersection, the universal mystical feminine energy that births and loyally aids the masculine physical reality.