My disagreement with vs battles wiki

I am not a mindless vs battles wiki hater like some are. I've made a defense of vs battles wiki before that said I've noticed a trend vs battles wiki has that I think is negatively impacting the vs community that I wanted to talk about.

I was recently into a back and forth debate with vs battles wiki users about Madoka being multiversal. I was checking daily but they stopped posting so I presume that argument is done? *shrug*

Regardless, while debating I came to notice the arguments they were using for Madoka to be multiversal were the same arguments being used to put Usagi, which is literally my favorite character in fiction at multiversal as well which is also something I disagree with.

If you are from vs battles wiki....uhh.....hi. Hope you don't take this in the wrong way. I an not trying to insult, merely to explain my perspective.

If you are someone who regularly reads my blogs and also looks at things from vs battles wiki I hope this helps explains why we may different in our assessment of certain characters.

Allow me to begin by sharing an anecdote. When I was back on the OBD debating Sailor Moon downplayers, the thing I got told a lot was that the feat of Usagi restoring the cosmos isn't universal because cosmos here means galaxy.

Ignoring for a second that there are more universal showings then that in SM, "cosmos" literally means universe. It cannot just mean "galaxy" because the definition of the word is "universe".

However people talking about SM on VS Battles wiki take the cosmos restoring from SM as a multiversal showing because the Sailor Moon universe has parallel dimensions and other areas like the space-time corridor.

To me this seems like the same as saying cosmos means "galaxy" here, just in reverse. "Cosmos" means Universe, not "all the dimensions that exist". It was very similar talking with people there about Madoka. When a character said the "world" or "universe" it seemed to be automatically assumed that they meant multiverse.

When a character said the "world of witches" it seemed to be automatically assumed to be a multiverse because.....I'm not sure.... when Homura says she can destroy the universe, it's just assumed this means multiverse contextually, because....I suppose because she knows of the existence of more universes?

Without meaning to strawman, as I'm sure there is a logic more then just this, at this level I think most people would agree this is insufficient in reasoning, as if someone says "climate change will destroy the world" they certainly are not trying to say climate change is universe busting.

When a character says "world" I read that as an area of space generally equal to a planet or greater. When a character says "universe" I read that as an of space generally equal to a universe or greater and usually take the conservative assumption.

Both are series I love and I have read/watched the entirety of and in the canon part I don't know of any showing where a character on-screen performs a multiversal feat or is directly stated to be able too perform a multiversal feat. Instead there are feats of them being able to do things to a world or universe that are being contextually interpreted to meaning multiverse.

This is what I would say is the primary difference between how I interpret and how I think VS battles wiki would interpret, and I am not trying to speak in an accusatory sense, but in as close I can to a neutral term. I believe that I try to stick as close as possible to what is literally written or shown as possible while VS Battles wiki has more of a tendency to interpret into what they are saying.

Perhaps this is a quick just of my own, but I am uncomfortable saying that my interpretation of a series is the "correct" one unless I can show evidence that is ambiguous, by which I mean evidence why I don't think can be in good faith interpreted elsewise.

Now obviously there is a limit to this. I obviously have to assume that unless otherwise noted things mean the same as they do in reality. Planets are planet sized, the speed of light is 299,792,458 meters per second, and so on. But I try to take as few interpretations as possible, and stick as closely to the literal word of the text as I can. This is my vs philosophy because it seems to me if something is un-falsifiable, that is to say, impossible to PROVE one way or another, that trying to use it in a debate is antithetical to the nature of debate, which is that each point is to be demonstrated by evidence and falsified by evidence in kind.

This does not seem to be VS Battles wiki's general philosophy....I would be interested to hear the sort of.... "underpinnings" of their vs philosophy though I don't imagine most people there would be very interested in talking about. Especially as I am just some random on the internet to them. Truth be told I was on there briefly, but I disagreed with some of the underlying assumptions the site has like dimensional tiering and so it felt....I don't know "disrespectful" I guess to hang around there. I didn't want to be telling people what was and wasn't the case if we disagreed fundamentally about how to interpret some feats.

Princess Tutu-verse Strategy Guide

How to be OP in the Princess Tutu-verse.

Note: Spoilers. You've been warned.

Local Scale Threat:

At this tier are the heart shards, the fragmented emotions of the Prince in the Story possessing various people and objects, imbuing them with a consciousness dominated by that emotion. These beings possess reality-warping abilities often associated the nature of what they possess.

This tier starts at city block level with Anteaterina warping a large amount of land and manipulating the ground on that scale and goes up to multi-city block level scaling to River, a River possessed by a Heart Shard which is deep enough a light can not be seen at the bottom. Princess Kraehe also summoned a number anthromorphic crow swordsmen that are also likely at this tier for being able to at least harm town level characters with swords. So power is generally in the city block to multi-city block range.

In terms of speed, this tier is likely in the subsonic range scaling from the Crows moving fast enough to be a blur and generally being comparable to the higher tiers in terms of speed who have several different subsonic speed feats including Princess Kraehe crossing the town at the same speed as Ravens, Princess Tutu being able to catch someone falling from a third story window before they fell a single story from across a courtyard, and Princess Tutu herself moving fast enough to blur in Akt 4.

Combat in Princess Tutu is highly stylized and often involves the characters dancing their emotions, with their emotions warping their environment. At this tier, this mostly involves manipulating the battlefield as it already exists or creating matter.

In terms of other abilities, this tier has logia intangibility (River, being water) as well as Intangibility including the Lamp Spirit and Wili Maiden. Outside the possibilities provided by reality-warping there isn't much offensive hax, though the Lamp Spirit and the Wili Maiden also have the ability to put people to sleep. It should be noted this tier also potentially has the ability to seal as 5 of the Heart Shards together were able to seal the Raven.

It should also be noted that Kraehe's crow swordsmen are highly skilled flying swordsmen.

What makes this verse tricky to fight even at this tier is the weird stats. By City Block to Multi-City Block Level, most characters have developed higher speeds then subsonic. Trying to find characters slow enough to be counters is really tricky.

In terms of weaknesses, the big thing that immediately sticks out to me is immobilization. The characters generally use their abilities by dancing, and binding them with rope or vines or something would likely be very strong.

This however does have the problem that it seems like it wouldn't affect River very well. This leads to what I think would be a generally strong power in general; freezing. Strong enough freezing is a form of immobilization which could put out Lamp, freeze River, and immobilize all of Kraehe's Swordsmen and the more humanoid fighters. The only one this would not be effective against is Wili Maiden.

Beyond that, a general weakness of the verse is a lack of enhanced perception. Outside of Princess Tutu's empathy ability, able to sense the emotions of others, the verse generally lacks ability to perceive better then any human.

This tier also has another weakness peculiar to it. All the Shards are dependent on the singular emotion of the Heart Shard to use their powers. Someone who can understand their emotion and can manipulate or convince them in an emotional state outside their emotion will have their powers lessen.

My first counter is particularly strong at this point, this being

Arya from the Inheritance Cycle.

Arya's magical power was so great as to stop the massive pieces of the Isidar Mithrim calced at the city block range. She can move as fast as a horse and matched Eragon's speed who can move faster then the eye. As such she is on the lower end of power for the verse, and comparable to slightly greater in speed. 

Arya is a very powerful Elf, with a telepathic sense that can extend across an entire city, giving her immediate access to the minds of any of the characters at this tier. Arya's psionic abilities would be absolutely absurd in the verse as she can read thoughts and memories, drive someone mad, create illusions so real as to affect their physical body, or directly take them over. This would allow her to gg one-shot every single character at this tier in the verse most likely one at a time and potentially at one time. 

She is also massively more versatile then the verse, with one-shot haxes for most of the physical entities. With her clairvoyance and precognition she would be able to foresee any potential threats, and she can teleport out of the way if needed using her slightly superior speed. Not that she would likely need too as she is over 100 years as an elf, and has spent much of that time training her skill in both swordplay and magic to a superhuman level.

The only real disadvantage with her is her magic is tied to stamina. Inheritance Cycle magic is tied directly to lifeforce of the user, and without it not only would she lost a lot of her abilities, but she would weaken significantly to about wall level which is weak enough to be one-shot. I don't think the verse has enough fighters to really drain Arya's stamina enough for it to be a concern, as Elves can fight or run for days straight, but it is a thing to note at least.

For an even more dangerous counter you could use

Lord Voldemort from Harry Potter.

The strongest Dark Wizard, Voldemort was powerful enough to destroy a forcefield protecting all of Hogwards, requiring City Block to Multi City Block Level energy, making him comparable to the verse. He also possess subsonic reactions and flight speed scaling to other Wizards moving at well over 100 mph (~44.7 meters per second).

Voldemort has most of the abilities of Arya, being a powerful psychic threat; able to use Legilimency and the Imperius Curse to drive the tier mad or wipe away certain emotions from their minds. He can also read thoughts and memories.

Voldemort can escape any threat the verse poses to him via teleportation and flight. He also should likely posssess freezing magic, which is a standard spell taught to Hogwarts students. He can also use Fiendfyre, which creates a sentient malicious fire that spreads rapidly. Fiendfyre is infamous for it's ability to resist being put out, even by magical water (like, say, River) and has enough power to destroy even a Horcrux, suggesting it could even search out and destroy Heart Shards granting the tier's fighters their powers. Voldemort can cast Fiendfyre and guide it via his dark magic towards any Heart Shard user, and allow it to consume their heart shard before they can figure out some way to stop it (if they can). This is assuming he doesn't immediately one-shot via Imperious Curse or Avada Kedavra (Which ironically would probably be less effective then Imperious or Fiendfyre as it possibly would not work on the Ghost Wili Maiden).

He also has the ability to turn invisible, which the verse would struggle with. 

That said Voldemort is famously arrogant and prone to pointless theatrics in-verse, hence why he created 7 Horcruxes of objects important to him rather then random grains of sand in Egypt. For a character not bound to this, and possibly even a threat to the higher tier I would suggest

The Dunwich Horror from the Lovecraft Mythos.

The Dunwich Horror is a monstrositiy whose footsteps were the size of tree trucks and described to be the size of a large building. It was also fast enough to travel deep within the countryside fairly quickly, suggesting a superhuman level of speed. 

That said stats are not why it would be so strong here. The Dunwich Horror is naturally invisible though it's strange sounds cause physiological and psychological damage to all who hear it, potentially being able to turn them mad, which may interfere with the ability to use emotions  of the Heart Shards. Beyond that, if the Dunwich Horror is rendered visible it drives those who see it insane, again attacking their psychology.

The Child of Yog-Sothoth, The Dunwhich Horror possess Old One physiology, making it impossible to harm with physical capacities like physical energy or even physical reality-warping meaning that nothing except MAYBE sleep inducement and sealing could even work on the Dunwhich Horror here. 

However, it's greatest capacities is it's infamous nature as the gateway for the Great Old Ones. The Dunwich Horror has the ability to open portals for far stronger beings, dependent on the amount of supernatural present, as it showed when it fled through the countryside going to a concentration of supernatural to open a portal. So how much supernatural is there in Princess Tutu?

hahahahaHAHAHAHAHAHA

A lot. Princess Tutu exists in a world where the natural and supernatural intermingle freely like how Ahiru's teacher is a talking antromorphic cat. Before Drosseleyer died he warped the reality of the town with his writing so that it was infused with the supernatural so he could continue to write the story from beyond the grave. The entire town is filled with supernatural energy. The Dunwich Horror would pretty much immediately have the capacity to summon Super-Cosmic entities. 

City Scale Threat:

In terms of power, this tier scales from the Dark Prince creating a dimension the size of a forest, The Raven being the size of the town, and having a dimension with a whole desert in his stomach. The tier is also subsonic for the reasons mentioned above.

I'm gonna be honest, this is the hardest tier I have ever done. I could talk about some of the abilities from most of the characters here like town scale transmutation or hypnosis or dimensional bfr but it's all almost insignificant a challenge compared to the God Tier of the verse Drosselmeyer. Drosselmeyer is a Ghost existing outside spacetime, that can influence spacetime on a town+ level scale from outside it, can freeze time, can alter the plot however he wishes, can transmute (on a town level scale by scaling), can bfr, can turn people into his puppets....he's incredibly hax. Drosselmeyer technically relies on sight, looking into spacetime via the mirrors in his dimension the gap in time, but that's a pretty small weakness especially since he can view the entire town at once. 

And it's only subsonic town level, that's the trick. You somehow need to hit a town level ghost outside of spacetime before he plothaxes the character, one of the most difficult haxes to resist. Without going over town level stats and subsonic speeds.

There is in fact a number of hax town level characters that are...supersonic level. Just fast enough that I can't use them. It doesn't help that Drosselmeyer being outside spacetime means that speed level is basically irreverent.

But I managed to think of some counters, and really it has to do with Drosselmeyer's character. Drosselemeyer wants to make the story as tragic as possible, viewing that as the apex of story. Drosselmeyer can not resist his desire to make the story "better" by making it more tragic and he certainly doesn't want the story to end, and is constantly trying to delay it. 

Also as shown in Ahiru's last dance, Drosselmeyer can not understand the character being able to transcend the role he's given them, he doesn't understand the power of hope, of a character defying the author. 

A character that would be good is a character that he would try to incorporate into the story instead of viewing them as a threat to the story, and can manipulate or otherwise beat him before he realizes it.

For a good example of that, despite lower stats, I would suggest

Lily Weatherwax from Discworld. 

Lily Weatherwax is the Fairy Godmother in the Discworld universe. She scales to the Twins in speed, who were able to blitz normal humans at faster then the eye speeds, and scales to mid tier wizards who could create building level explosions.

Because Princess Tutu is a Fairy Tale World, Lily Weatherwax would fit in very well, to the point Drosselmeyer would probably not notice her nature as a threat. She is a highly intelligent being, comparable to her sister who could mentally compete with wizards capable of probing the sources of causality of the universe with just their mathematics.

Lily Weatherwax has the ability to see through all mirrors and travel through them, and allow a form of pseudo-duplication extending into infinity. This would allow her to see and affect Drosselmeyer as he views everything through mirrors and is constantly in front of them. She could mentally manipulate and trick him, viewing him while he would have no idea of her threat.

Lily also has the power of stories, the power to manipulate plot to make it so that which is supposed to happen in a story will happen. Her plot hax could very well take Drosselmeyer off-guard since, while he does possess plot manipulation, he has never showed resistance to it himself. Lily Weatherwax could rewrite the plot so that the hero defeats the villain, the hero being Princess Tutu and the villain being Drosselmeyer. 

That said this is all conditional on Drosselmeyer not realizing the true threat she presents. If he does then it would be very difficult for her to win. But I actually found a character that could compete with a Drosselmeyer that actually wants to kill them, that being

Eternal Nocturne from League of Legends.

Nocturne scales physically to Garen whose Demancian Justice can produce kilotons of energy, and could speedblitz a mage from across a room, showing that he would have similar stats to The Tier.

Nocturne is the amalgamation of all nightmares, giving him a vast array of nightmare related powers such as inducing fear, sending people to sleep of nightmares, turning into peoples worst fears, creating illusions etc.

Nocturne negates magic with his presence which would also be very helpful and has shown the ability to hit intangible entities as well as drains souls with his very presence. 

He can hypothetically disguise his presence with his illusions. As Drosselmeyer relies on sight, he probably would not notice Nocturne, and if Nocturne can just get close before Drosselmeyer can hax him in some form, he would one-shot via hax.

You might be thinking "but how would Nocturne reach Drosselmeyer?" Nocturne actually has a form known as Eternal Nocturne who transcends spacetime. He can casually travel between dimensions and outside spacetime, suggesting it would be child's play for Eternal Nocturne to travel to Drosselmeyer's location and absorb his soul.

But Nocturne could still get haxed. Could there be someone even greater?

I think there may be. I know of a character that I think may be the perfect counter. That counter is

Literature Club President Sayori from Doki Doki Literature Club (Good Ending)

Note: Depending on how big you think the Doki Doki Literature Club world is, Sayori may be a lot stronger, but the exact same logic actually applies to Drosselmeyer whose views the Princess Tutu world as his story.

While Sayori is not as skilled a plot manipulator as Monika, she should probably scale to most of Monika's feats, and her feats of affecting at least the town the characters live in with her plot hax, which would give her at least town level. 

But what about abilities? 

Sayori has the same plot manipulation as Drosselmeyer. And while she is not as skilled as Drosselmeyer at it, she also has something else....RESISTANCE to plothax. She is capable of breaking out of the script of her own game, while Drosselmeyer and should scale to Monika who was able to persist (though painfully) after having her character file deleted. 

This means that Drosselmeyer could get manipulated by Sayori, but Sayori could resist Drosselmeyer's hax. 

Beyond that, they have similar haxes. Both have matter hax, mind hax, time hax, and plot hax. Both can resist all of those save for mind hax and Drosselmeyer being unable to resist plot hax.

So why is Sayori the perfect counter? It actually is based on their characters.

Sayori, while she seems initially happy-go-lucky and cheerful, is secretly clinically and suicidally depressed. She presents a happy face when seeing the player but secretly suffers drastically. That is the kind of poetic tragedy that Drosselmeyer eats up. However in the good ending, after seeing the Player go back in time many times to make all the members of the Literature Club happy, she is inspired to keep going and maintaining hope. 

This possibility, of a character breaking the bounds of their role, transcending tragedy via hope is exactly what beat Drosselmeyer originally and the thing he would not be able to account for. Drosselmeyer would likely try to incorporate Sayori into his story, incorporating her tragedy, and play out her original story of killing himself after confessing to her love. But Sayori would be able to resist that via the hope the player gives to her in the good ending, allowing her to surprise and defeat Drosselmeyer.

Sayori is the perfect counter for Drosselmeyer because she essentially has his powerset, appears to be the exact type of character knows how to and would want to manipulate, but actually can one-shot him and has resistance to abilities via her own abilities and by gaining the power of "hope" in her own character arc.

And that's how to be OP in the Princess Tutu-verse. 

Jay Garrick is underrated powerwise

Jay Garrick, for those who don't know is the Flash of the Golden Age of Comics. Due to a lab accident he accidentally activated a metahuman gene within him, giving him the speed of Mercury.

A lot of people downplay Jay Garrick on the basis that he is much slower then Barry Allen and Wally West. And while it's true he's not as fast as those two, Jay is quite a lot stronger then I hear some people. I've heard some people claim Jay Garrick is "only" lightspeed and that in terms of raw strength/durability he is only street level. However this is untrue. 

For those who don't know DC Comics Speedsters are ranked based on what "barrier" they can break. First is the sound barrier, then the light barrier, then the time barrier, then the dimension barrier and finally the ultimate one; the speedforce barrier.

Jay Garrick WAS lightspeed when he was first introduced, in fact VERY consistently he was stated to be lightspeed.

However this was just the speed of Jay Garrick when he was first starting out.

Later on Jay Garrick was fast enough to equal the speed of Post-Crisis Superman and was able to outpace him once he started using speed steal on the Man of Steel

and Superman was fast enough to rival Professor Zoom's speed

Professor Zoom being one of Flash's fastest villains, enough to somewhat stalemate Wally West in the Post-Crisis era after he stopped limiting himself

Jay Garrick was also fast enough to converse with Wally and Bart in nanoseconds or billionths of seconds

He was also able to keep up with Superboy Prime

For reference Superboy Prime was fast enough to punch past the dimensional barrier while weakened

The Dimensional Barrier being the last speed barrier before the speedforce barrier itself!

Superboy Prime is also a Pre-Crisis Kryptonian which were infamous for nutty speed feats, to the point Pre-Crisis Superman could break the time barrier as a child

This is all consistent with what I think is Jay's best speed feat, running up to the edge of the speed force

Consider for a moment that Wally West's famous "Trans-Time" speed feat was back when Wally WAS deliberately holding back and was only implied to be past the Time Barrier.

Now for the record I am NOT saying Jay is equal in speed to Wally or Barry. Just that he is undoubtedly MFTL and a lot faster then people think, being nigh-speedforce level speed.

In terms of power, while Jay Garrick never learns the Infinite Mass Punch per se, he does have the abiltiy to use his speed energy to absorb kinetic blows and to deliver some of his own. He's been able to fight Black Adam

Black Adam being able to tank punches from Superman

Jay was also able to harm Mordru with his strikes, though as Mordru is magic-based and given the caption it may just be that Jay is not giving Mordru time to use any defensive magic

That said even when taking off-guard, Mordru was able to take a punch from Pre-Crisis Superboy

Anyway, that was just my quick blog on Jay Garrick. I hope this convinced you he is far above lightspeed and street level in terms of physical power. 

A small retraction

In my Starfire Death Analysis and subsequent blogs Are Starfire's Feats Outliers and Comic Starfire Battle Royale I brought up Starfire surviving near the Black Hole in Infinite Crisis as a feat, as it was a 95 million mile wide black hole that was destroying galaxies, threatening the universe and was shifting the universe off-center

As well as surviving it's closure which released an immense amount of energy

However I tried to actually calculate and I don't know if I'm just using bizarrely conservative estimates or something but my calcs did not get any remotely cosmic. 

Now granted, I knew that the surface area and distance from event meant it was not a galactic or universal feat, I assumed it would probably be somewhere in the planetary or stellar range. Yet the highest energy value I got from this was in the gigaton range (I calced it a few ways based on the different apparent distances in different comic panels)

Mostly this came because the surface area was SO immensely small in comparison. Starfire is so much smaller then the actual singularity that the energy was super super minuscule in comparison. Maybe someone else will re calc this and find that I made an error but as of this moment this is not the cosmic feat I thought it was.

Now granted, I still think Starfire is in the Stellar Range. She has ~34 other showings that are each planetary or stellar (mostly stellar), primarily from scaling to other Titans Members or to Lanterns and Lantern-Level entities.

I guess let this be a lesson about taking surface area for granted 😋

VBW PMMM Downgrade Thread Response 4

"As much as I hate to use it, occam's razor suggests that unless its ever been explicitly stated that some universes can only exist at some times or there is reason to believe Queen Mami pulled infinite universes out of nowhere, it seems to be the lesser assumption that Queen Mami got multiverse info from her multiverse book and that the multiverse is just neutral without oddly specific existing rules."

Why? How is it more simple? The claim here is that infinite universes exist. Obviously the most conservative claim is the lowball claim pretty much by definition. 

Stating Queen Mami got such information from the book or that infinite universes exist are both claims, and both require evidence of which I don't believe any explicit evidence has been provided and as such both are theories which are not falsifiable. 

Burden of proof is always with the affirmative claim because that's the claim that WOULD have evidence. As such evidence should be provided Queen Mami got info about number of universes from the book and that the universes that currently exist are infinite.

"Even if we assumed its only refering to the prime universe, it is constanty mentioned that the fate of the World of the Witches was destruction, it'd just be that she did it so for the multiverse when she made her wish (As it was affecting the multiverse the same way)."

That's not an ASSUMPTION, that's simply all that is shown. Burden of proof would fall on someone saying it's the multiverse and so far no statement of Madoka changing every universe or feat of Madoka changing every universe has been shown. It's been numerous showing of "world" and "universe" that are simply being assumed to be Multiverse based on presumably the fact that Madoka can see every universe when the two are not necessarily connected. 

"I believe he's refering to the obselete timeline that Homura's shield is linked to, and by extension the rest of the previous multiverse / World of the Witches."

Homura's timeline is "connected" to the original universe but I've re-read Wraith Arc during this debate again to try and figure out where the feat is that is keep being mentioned of it having a multiverse within it and I simply can't find it. Homura enters it and there is a clearly large space but nowhere is it remotely stated to be a multiverse.

"Doesn't Madoka save magical girls by destroying their soul gems? It seems more likely that she did the same to the populations and moved them over rather than erasing them (Which I don't believe was even mentioned) when the previous multiverse was destroyed."

To use your own argumnet: Occam's Razor. It seems more "simple" Madoka became a new law that stopped every witch from being born and saved the soul of each magical girl, which caused the universe to change forms then she destroyed the multiverse, made a new multiverse and put the souls of every single person from the original multiverse into the new multiverse especially when to use my argument from earlier there is no suggestion that she did that.

The universe is called a "new" universe but like the analogy I made in the first blog, so did the Flashpoint universe of DC which was thought to have been made strictly by time travel.

"Using Rebellion as contrary evidence is a bit suspect, since the Isolation Zone is heavily implied to exist (Beginning of Chapter 9, ending of Chapter 9, and the fact that they are identical outside of the False City) in the World of the Witches where the concept should still exist via Kriemhild Gretchen's Ultimate form."

Really? I mean maybe I simply don't pay enough attention to backgrounds to notice that. I will have to rewatch that part of Rebellion.

Even so, I don't think the evidence supports that Madoka literally erased the concept of witches as that was not her wish, and it's not what she has shown to have done.

"The Encompassing thingy is why I'm sold on 2-A"

Madoka's concept being everywhere I don't think should be a multiversal feat since A: Her concept is not a physical thing and B: it's never stated to be everywhere on a multiversal scale

"Homura scales to Godoka + can apparently destroy the multiverse, so 2-A is also fine with her."

Homura's claim isn't of destroying the multiverse. Sayaka asks if her plan is to destroy the universe and Homura suggests that she might. People only assume this means multiverse by reference to other things which is the contention here.

"Erasing/destroying/creating Infinite number of Universe is indeed 2-A."

Except she didn't do that. Nowhere is that stated. The only things that are ever explicitly stated to be of a multiversal scale is Madoka claiming she wants to kill every witch in every universe before ascending and after ascending stating that she can see every universe. Everything else are assumptions that claims of "world" "Universe" or "everywhere" mean multiverse.

"The fact that Ultimate Madoka erased the concept of witch from every universe is just a supporting feat. I don't think it should be removed."

But even granting that it happened, which is not what she wished for and something she never actually showed she could do, it still isn't a multiversal destruction feat or supporting anything. The fact that the universe changed in response to Madoka destroying every witch is not a combat applicable feat. And there's no explict multiversal showing for it to be in support of.

"Except what Madoka did was rewritting the concept of "Witch" into the concept of "Wraith", which made previous Multiverse called the "World of Witch" cease to exist, and a new one called the "World of Wraith" was born."

It's never stated that she turned the concept of "witch" into the concept of "wraith." Also even if that was true how would that be a multiversal AP feat? Shifting a concept, causing the entire multiverse to change does not mean one could just blow up the multiverse if wanted.

The mechanism is important here, that changing the universe caused greater alterations.

"Uh, the fact that Madoka’s concept encompasses infinite universes is in itself 2-A."

Why? If a character's soul was the size of a universe, we wouldn't say they are universal based strictly on that.

Madoka is a concept, a non-physical thing. Even if you show that she encompassed infinite universes, which was not shown it's simply being assumed, why would her non-physical form being in that many universes suggests she could destroy that many?

That is all that is written for now. These are getting longer so I may no longer be able to reply to every argument though I will do my best. 

God of War-verse Strategy Guide

How to be OP in God of War-verse.

Local Scale Threat:

God of War takes place within two realms that are their own universes at least, the Greek universe and the Norse universe. These universes abound in dangerous mythological creatures, but even the humans of the even verse to properly combat them are bigger and stronger then in our universe. The Woman Alethia, whose only power was psychic vision withstood briefly a massive fall and being buried under a large amount of rubble and the mad man weakling Icarus could withstand being smashed through massive stone walls. 

Stronger Mortals have shown even greater feats like a few soldiers taking down a statue that weighed thousands of tons or the Last Spartan surviving the destruction of a building and have been shown to contend with even the minor monsters of the series, such as one soldier managing to fight 3 undead soldiers at the same time, and two Athenians protecting the oracle from 2 harpies. For reference Harpies are fast enough to travel up planetary sized Mount Olympus in seconds and travel from the depths of Hades in seconds, fast enough to deliver the blades of chaos to Ares. Undead Soldiers are tough enough to tank an immense fall of hundreds of meters and both Harpies and Undead Soldiers can tank the powerful winds caused by Typhon's breath. 

There are monsters even stronger then this on this scale such as the Minotaurs who can with a single strike can pulverize a human soldier, turning them into merely a puddle of blood. Minotaurs can also tank the winds of the desert of lost souls which can strip a normal human to the bone, and a Titan Minotaur varient was a very large beast that can send large boulders flying. There are also Banshees that can split men in half with a single tail swipe and satyrs who wield weapons so heavy that they their sheer weight indents the ground and embeds the weapon in it. 

While most monsters probably aren't quite as fast as the sub-relativistic Harpies, they should be comparable which is consistent with the lightning-speed Geryon monster which is not especially quick.

 The verse even at this tier has haxes, and a recurring trend with this verse is going to be overwhelming offense with brute strength far above baseline for their level complimented with myriad forms of offensive hax.

Even at the very lowest tiers is the mad king Midas who transmutes anything he touches into gold. The Arms of Hades similarly also have transmutation abilities, able to turn humans into the undead soldiers and The Dead are capable via touch of draining the lifeforce and magic of even beings far stronger then them such as God of War 3 Kratos when he fell into the River Styx.

The Gorgons, a common enemies are capable of releasing from their eyes a beam capable of turning biological material to stone, including flash petrifying an entire room of people. Various versions of the Sirens have mental affecting attacks that stun or cause temporary paralysis. The Norse enemy known as Revenants are capable of weakening the very fabric of reality, showing that they are capable of ignoring conventional durability by weakening the fabric of reality that the opponent exists in.

The same Revenants are capable of slips between the sheets of reality to teleport and to gain the benefits of intangibility. Of course actual intangibility is also possessed by the wraiths and arms of Hades.

Beyond this, as might be expected, general abilities are also possessed in abundance including flight, elemental manipulation (fire and lightning seem most common for the verse), and summoning.

Overall what makes God of War so strong as this tier, is it's sheer overwhelming physical power, the raw numbers of powerful entities, easily in the billions of times (worlds much larger then Earth with many species of species with their own massive armies) as well as general preponderance of offensive hax. When fighting beings with overwhelming offense, it becomes very useful tactically to avoid direct conflict.

That said the verse does have a few weaknesses. As a bit of a recurring theme, a lot of the fighters lack range equal to their tier (while they have range beyond melee, it is not equal to their attack power). Outside the actual archers, most fighters are limited to only within a few meters. This is helpful because range is actually a good way around to get around the overwhelming offense of the verse. 

This brings up what I think is an even bigger weakness at this tier, that being stealth. While stronger beings in the verse have enhanced awareness and senses, at this tier I can not find anything suggesting the verse has superhuman sensory abilities, suggesting that high tier stealth might be a very strong strategy. These two combined suggests that a sniper strategy would be very effective.

As a bonus this would avoid the need for inter-dimensional capacity to hit the Revenant. However anti-intangibility would still be needed in order to fight the Wraiths and Arms of Hades.

However that tactic can also be employed to great effect against the verse. Pretty much every hax outside of probably the Revenant's reality-weakening affects the physical body of the target. Even the Siren's paralyzing music while it affects the mind only causes an effect on the body. As such a form of intangibility, even a logia intangibility would probably be very helpful at dealing with the raw aggressive power of the verse.

Finally and this is a general point for the verse; the verse is very testosterone filled and prone to violent combat with many of the creatures prone to challenging other beings they come across, with fighting being very common across both universes. As such being able to manipulate the anger, even just via standard psychological manipulation, would likely be effective in getting the verse's fighters to fight each other. 

So what is helpful for fighting the verse? Range, Stealth, Manipulation, Some form of intangibility or logia intangibility, and some form of anti-intangibility. There are a few characters that can do that at this tier which brings me to my first counter

Count Dracula from the Universal Series of Movies.

The Count was able to fight evenly with the Wolfman, who himself scales to Frankenstein who tanked a large building level explosion and suggests he scales to over mach 300 from lightning timing. This suggests he would at least be comparable to most of the fighters of this tier. 

Dracula would be like a dangerous disease for the verse. He has both logia and normal intangibility able to turn into smoke and turn invisible and intangible. This would allow him to avoid almost any physical attack from the verse by using intangibility. Dracula can use this for stealth as well, and combined with his hypnosis this would give him the ability to affect every fighter in the verse and and cause them to fight.

However what would be even more dangerous is how hard he is to put down. Without a stake in his skeleton, it almost instantly regenerated his body, showing his incredible regen factor that without using a hax or knowledge of his weaknesses (which the verse wouldn't have). Moreover so long as he infects one person, he could possess them meaning it would be incredibly difficult to permanently kill them. Added onto his ability to turn other biological entities into vampires, he would spread among the tier's biological entities like a plague.

For another counter that I think would be effective I would suggest

Shoggoths from the Lovecraft Mythos. 

Shoggoths are massive entities, capable of growing vaster then a subway train, suggesting they would have building level stats. They were also fast enough in reactions to fight the Starspawn which flew from a distant star to the Earth in implied to be a brief time, suggesting their reactions would allow them to not get blitzed.

Shoggoths are the primarily aquatic species created by the Elder Things as a servant race. The Shoggoths protoplasmic forms are famously malleable and adaptable, evolving minds via mutation to rebel against the Elder Things.

The Shoggoths bodies can adapt and alter at will to the point of mimicking the bodies and organs of other entities. 

The verse's tiers trying to fight a shoggoth would be a nightmare. Attempting to strike them would just cause their blows to sink into their protoplasmic form like mud leaving them vulnerable to counter attack. Turning part of their bodies to stone or gold wouldn't be very helpful as they can adapt their bodies back to proper position. As their former masters the Elder Things possessed control over the atom, it's possible this ability extends even to the atomic. The Shoggoths, while not totally invulnerable, would be very hard to harm and would be able to overwhelm the verse. 

While Shoggoths are considered idiots compared to most species in the Mythos, their intelligence rivals humans as they have mimicked habits and cultures from them. Given their shapeshifting abilities, they could hypothetically mimic normal animals in order to trap enemies.

It is also implied that the Shoggoths can fight intangible enemies from their fights with the Star Spawn (The Elder Things used them to war with the Star Spawn) said to not be made entirely of matter. Star Spawn are even implied to reside partially in other dimensions, suggesting that a Shoggoth might be able to hit a Revenant while in another dimension. 

However much is unknown of the Shoggoths. There's another character whose capacities are very well observed and who I think would be the ideal counter. This would be

Batman from DC Comics. 

Batman is much stronger then fodder Atlanteans who can tank the depths of the oceans requiring wall to low building level durability. Batman himself has tanked building sized explosions on numerous occasions, lifted and held under the weight of a collapsed building to give people time to get out, harmed bulletproof metahumans with his bare hands, survived hellfire which has been said to be as hot as lava, and overpowered Killer Croc who has numerous showings at this level. This shows he would very likely be comparable to the strongest people of this tier.

Batman also has many bullet-timing feats, including automatic machine fire, casual bullet-timing, point blank bullet-timing feats. DC Street Tiers also scale to several lightning timing feats, and Batman has also reacted to the light attacks of both Doctor Light and Malik suggesting that he has relativistic reactions. It's possible that his reactions are even higher as he once managed to tag Kid Flash, though this is arguably an outlier.

So Batman can contend physically pretty much equally with the tier's fighters. But his abilities are far more versatile.

Batman is undeniably one of the DC Earth's best martial artists, having mastered every single one. He knows Lady Shiva's famous Leopard Blow, a pressure point blow that one-shot kills, though he modified it to be non-lethal. His martial arts are so accomplished it reaches the point of giving actual haxes, including destroying the ability to breath, erasing memories, disabling limbs and on. 

Batman is an absolute god of stealth. Superman, who can see on astronomical distances, has x-ray vision, can see souls etc. was unable to detect Batman's position and Batman was able to hide from the entire Justice League at once, including the magical powers of Zatanna and John Constantine. He could easily remain undetected against anyone on this tier and one-shot defeat them.

It should be noted that Batman also has anti-intangibility devices, including standard bat-a-rangs, meaning he could very easily hit the intangible entities. Batman would also be able to hit them from far outside their sensory range as he is stated to be one of the top 10 best shots in the entire DC Universe.

Batman is also one of the smartest minds in DC Comics, able to contend with Lex Luthor, Metron, Brainiac and Darkseid. Darkseid is capable of perceiving the entire multiverse, create advanced hypertechnology that can usurp part of the Anti-Life Equation, dark half of the Source, possessing billions+ years of experience, and playing chess with a Monitor, using the physical multiverse as the pieces. And he is the LEAST intelligence of the people mentioned there. He has many many times manipulated opponents by manipulating their flaws into doing what he wants, to the point that the "Batman Gambit" in pop culture refers to that exact thing. Batman's mind is also famously and insanely strong-willed to the point that the only human with a greater will in the DCU is Hal Jordan, as well as the fact that Batman's will has resisted the will of 90,000,000 other people as well as the Spectre himself meaning that mental attack would likely not paralyze or hurt him at all.

And this is all with standard equipment, not including things like the reality-warping mother box and mobius chair that he possesses.

Batman could potentially even beat the people in the higher tier, however because of the power gap him being blitzed becomes more likely. That said for this tier he would be absolutely unstoppable.

It should be noted that some people might think Batman would be at a disadvantage because he "does not believe in magic" however this was only true of Batman during the New 52 Era, which was set 10 years prior and was Batman's first interactions with metahumans. In Post-Crisis not only does he know of magic, but he can sense magic and has creating anti-magic devices as well as learned anti-magic techniques. 

City Scale Threat:

To be able to threaten a city or a large region generally requires the power comparable to a Demigod or a Large Monster in the verse. The prior tier was the tier of Kratos as a Spartan General, and this is the tier of Kratos after making his pact with Ares and during his 10 year long servitude to the gods.

The fighters of this tier are in the country range due to a variety of feats. Cyclops were able to construct the planetoid sized Mount Olympus using just their brute strength, not having control of even simple machines. The Furies were able to create a tremor that hit multiple islands, as well as being able to casually pull and island sized structure underwater, and created a dimension with it's own sea. Kratos before becoming God of War survived the Volcanic Eruption which destroyed a massive island and disconnected islands as well as launching Kratos across the Aegean. The very first magic in God of War had the power of a Typhoon concentrated inside his blades.

In terms of speed, this tier is in the FTL range. The Champion of Zeus have a lightspeed dash move that Word of God has confirmed that Castor and Pollux are faster then, yet Kratos was able to keep up with them despite them time slowing him in their confrontation.

In terms of abilities many of the prior abilities are still present, especially because numerous beings on this tier including Theseus, Alrik and the Furies possessing summoning abilities and can summon beings from the prior tier.

One thing that's noticable about this tier is that it added a pretty natural compliment to the large number of offensive haxes, specifically abilities meant to immobilize or otherwise trap mobility based builds that could otherwise dodge the attacks and haxes. The Ancients and the Trolls both possess freezing abilities, the Furies can produce black goo that can immobilize country level entities like Ascension Kratos, Perseus can raise his shield into the light to create a blinding flash of light to disorient enemies, even the time manipulation of Castor/Pollux and the petrification of Eurayle are arguably a form of immobilization, though they can be used to also ignore enemy durability.

The tier also possess a number of offensive haxes beyond even what was stated in the prior tier. The Furies Mind Manipulation grows more direct then the mind manipulation present in the lower tier and adds whole illusory environments as well as the ability to reality-warp. The Ancients, elemental guardians of the Norse World existing since the beginning of the universe, have corrupted forms created from Dwarfish Tinkering that can absorb souls, fittingly called "Soul Eaters." Castor and Pollux with their amulet have both spacetime hax, capable of theoretically aging an enemy to dust, but can absorb their lifeforce. The Furies can also create bugs that can infect and transmute biological entities.

In terms of other notable abilities, again many forms of elemental manipulation and flight exist at this tier. Perseus has a magic helm of invisibility and the Hydra has a form of regeneration, able to use his main head to regenerate the lesser heads.

In terms of weaknesses, many of the same concepts still apply. Invisibility and intangibility/anti-invisibility are still potent powers. I also think Duplication, Summoning or anything that allows you you to attack at multiple places at once would be really strong, as it was how in essence Kratos avodied the Black Goo Attack of the Furies, it's something a lot of the bosses due as a tactic etc. Teleportation would also do really well at this purpose, being an ability I can not recall anyone at this tier having, and being able to break out of any immobilization ability and attack from an unexpected angle.

Range is again, something a lot of the tier though not the whole tier lacks. The Furies can obviously affect country scale areas, that said most of the tier is limited to a local area in their fights. Manipulators would probably also do fairly well as much of the tier either is arrogant or bestial in intellect.

My first counter has almost this exact combination of abilities

that being Aku, The Shogun of Sorrow from Samurai Jack.

Aku is durable enough to tank colliding with the Earth with enough force to wipe out the dinosaurs, a teraton level event. This is consistent with him sinking an entire civilization underwater. He is also fast enough to outpace Jack who was able to move at nearly the speed of a ray of light. This suggests statwise he'd be a little bit slower and comparable power with the verse.

Aku has a form of logia where he is made of a dark inky material that can absorb physical weapons. This is relevant as many of the demigods of the GOW-verse rely on their weapons. Aku also can telekinetically remove them as his telekinesis was used to move a section of the ground in the graveyard battle against Jack. 

Aku has the ability to one-shot pretty much enemy in this tier from beyond their normal range via spacetime BFR using either his teleporting eye beams or his scream which tears a portal thousands of years into the future.

In terms of the giant monsters, it's possible Aku would be able to control them directly, as he seems to have control of monsters as shown when he summoned a crocodile while he was in disguise to carry Jack and he through a swamp.

Aku is also a teleporter, and it is stated that he can teleport his entire castle if he wishes. This would allow him to get the jump on any opponent, especially when combined with his ability to shapeshift and disguise himself at will, as well as his long-range scrying, giving him clairvoyance abilities. 

While haxes would likely work on Aku, his regen and logia nature as well as his ability to absorb physical weapons suggest that a direct physical attack on Aku would likely fail. However it also presents another risk getting close to Aku, as it gives him the possibility of corrupting his opponents with small pieces of him and turning them into another of him, which if he lays low initially would allow him to effectively duplicate and swarm the verse.

However Aku's greatest ability for the verse is his ability to manifest evil copies of any fighter experiencing rage and negative emotions of hatred. However given the warlike nature of the God of War verse, such things would likely exist in abundance, and Aku would be able to create for himself a virtual army for himself. This is not taking into account the possibility he could directly brainwash them which he has done before via usage of evil music. Aku is also a skilled manipulator which would bolster his ability to trick the verse.

That said Aku is visible and at speed disadvantage, and it's possible he could get haxed, such as having his soul (if he has one, as fragment of primordial evil) absorbed. For a character that is famously hard to kill in any manner I would suggest

Sun Wukong, the Monkey King (Original) from Journey to the West.

Sun statwise was strong enough to lift the weight of multiple mountains at once, and could grow many miles high at will or shrink similarly for stealth. With a single somersault the monkey king could cross 108,000 li or over 21,000 kilometers in a single bound, and his reaction speed should be even faster as he could guide the movement of his flying cloud which quickly traveled from Earth to Heaven. This suggests he should be comparable to the verse in stats, perhaps slightly below, though able to avoid being blitzed.

Sun Wukong is has 5-fold immortality, meaning he gained 5 separate sources of immortality (7 years training with Subhuti, scribbling out his name in the book of death, eaten the peaches of Heaven, drunk the wine of Heaven, and eaten the pills of longevity) rendering him wholly immortal many times over. As such Sun Wukong could basically act as Baldur but for a lower tier, being impossible on this tier to put down. 

Sun Wukong has much more then this however. Not only can make himself invisible and teleport, allowing him to be a great surprise and stealth character, but he can make every single one of his 84,000 hairs into another copy of himself, meaning that to fight against himself is to fight 84,001 Sun Wukong. If Sun was serious, he could simply hide and send his 84,000 to defeat the verse and overwhelm the verse's fighters with sheer numbers. While his strength is a bit subpar and he doesn't have any kind of one-shot attack, he can paralyze foes simply by pointing his finger which would allow him to wear down any opponent while they are paralyzed. 

Furthermore Sun Wukong has 72 Earthly transformations, allowing him to take 72 different forms, each one with their own life meaning if somehow was killed, he could resurrect into another one of his forms. 

All of this is topped off with Sun's infamous cunning nature, able to outwit the Gods and Lords of Death. Sun is a master of every martial art and trained for 20 years under the great Taoist Sage Subhuti. He would be well able to manipulate and trick and play with the tier's fighters at this tier. 

However Sun is rather arrogant and prone to impulse and it is possible he could be tricked and captured, though even then I'm not sure how they would kill him. For the best counter to this tier I would suggest 

Vlad Plasmius from Danny Phantom.

Vlad is easily comparable to powerhouse ghosts like Vortex and Fright Knight who were able to create planetary scale storms, requiring country levels of power. This is consistent with Skulker's lair being a whole island (and ghosts are stated to have created their lairs with their own energy) and with Spectra being able to survive an attack supposed to tear ghosts apart on an atomic scale, both of whom being weaker then Vlad. 

Vlad is also fast enough to compare to Technus' ghost rays which traveled from Space to Earth in seconds requiring relativistic speeds. As such Vlad is at a stat disadvantage against the tier, but is close enough to compete, and more then makes up for it with his abilities.

Vlad, like all ghosts possesses invisibility, as well as intangibility. This suggests he could stealth across the verse, and be very difficult to detect or hit and could defeat any entity in a few hits. However it goes beyond this.

Vlad possess the ability to "overshadow" or possess others, suggesting he could also take over any physical entity in the verse and use them to fight each other like puppets. Vlad combines this with his duplication abilities. It's a common error that Vlad can only duplicate into 4 of himselves, however he only does this to show off to Danny Phantom, and showcase how he is far more accomplished in his ghost abilities. When Vlad ran for Mayor of Amity Park, he duplicated into dozens of himself at least and overshadowed a number of people to elect himself. He could safetly sit down somewhere in relatively safety as a disguised human, while using his many duplicates to overshadow and destroy the verse with it's own fighters and given his personality it is likely this is what he would do. 

Ghosts are also shown to have minor bits of telekinesis which suggests he could telekinetically remove enemy weapons at will. He can also teleport away from any danger as he teleported away from the Ghost King Pariah Dark's grasp. 

Vlad is also a proficient manipulator and also a genius level intellect, able to create his own portal to another dimension (the ghost zone) by himself, as well as being able to create cloning machines. Vlad would be able to create dozens of copies and overwhelm the verse's fighters by causing them to fight each other by possessing each other, manipulating them and being strong enough to fight them himself if one of his is ever discovered, with his true self remaining the entire time perfectly safe. 

Planet to Galaxy Scale Threat:

Beyond the affairs of mortals are the Divinities, the beings who control nature and shape the structure of the cosmos. 

The Primordials were first amount these in age. A single one of these Uranus was able to create the universe, and the fighting between the Primordials completely incidentally created the galaxies within the universe. The Titans and Olympians, successive generations of gods of the Greek Universe are confirmed to be their equal.

The Norse Gods full extent of power is so far unconfirmed but Baldur, Half-Breed of the Aesir and Vanir was able to battle Kratos, the Greek God of War bearing the power of Ares, evenly even after Baldur's immortality was removed. Ares is so strong that he is stated to be the strongest of the Greek Gods after the Brother-Kings (Poseidon, Hades, and Zeus) who are supposed to be so strong that no other Olympian has any chance against them. Thor's hammer Mjolnir is the equal to Kratos' Leviathan Axe (and his battle with Jormungandr is so intense as to shake the 9 realms), and Odin is confirmed to have and scale to a number of universal feats, including one of the biggest water manipulation feats I've ever seen, covering an entire realm in mist. 

So overall universal is consistent for this tier. The strongest beings in raw power for this tier are at the moment Poseidon and Hades who can fodderize universal level beings though the norse gods like Odin and Thor may well be stronger when their feats are more well known. 

In terms of speed, most divinities scale to Kratos managing to battle evenly the Sisters of Fate who with precision measure out the thread controlling the fate of every single being and thing in nature in the world, a feat I calculated to be likely in the septillions of times the speed of light. However this is not even the maximum.

The divine light of Helios was stated to be able to illuminate the infinite underworld, requiring infinite speeds. Atropos was able to project herself to Olympus at infinite speeds. And fastest of all is Hermes, who scales to these speeds (though possibly for only a limited distance making it infinite burst speed). Numerous beings, though slower, can at least react to these beings.

As you might be able to tell, being able to fight these beings is very difficult even without the abilities. Speaking off their abilities, gods possess a number of abilities. Gods possess a planetary+-scale reality-warping ability related to their domain, control over nature and divine awareness/senses allowing for the gods to see for many miles and for Ares to sense Kratos getting Pandora's Box (as well as God of War Kratos seeing all combats occurring across space and time). The Gods also possess general reality-warping as they were able to create diseases as well as the ability to disguise themselves or change their size from cosmic to human-sized at will. 

Many of the Gods also demonstrate unique abilities. In the Greek Pantheon, Primordial Thanatos, god of Death, was shown to be able to possess bodies, as well as to induce death. Olympian Ares was able to create his dimension large enough to contain seemingly it's own galaxy, and was able to warp the reality within, as well as create dark copies of Kratos within (this is confirmed to be real, and not an illusion in God of War 2 where Kratos travels to the past and sees his younger self being taken into Ares inter-dimensional portal). Ares also possesses low-key the most underrated ability in God of War in my opinion, the ability to strip his opponents of their powers and absorb them. Olympian Athena possessed the ability to resurrect which she did to the Hydra so that Poseidon would give Kratos his magic. Athena also has the ability to manipulate concepts, which she did to manipulate the power of hope to seal it within Pandora's Box. Athena when she died, also rose to become a higher planar being, showing that raw physical force is not enough to defeat the tier, regardless of it's extent.

Even greater are the Brother-Kings Poseidon and Hades. Hades has the power with his famous chains to take the souls of anyone they attach too. Poseidon is also implied to have soul manipulation as his power was the power of the Eye of Atlantis which can destroy both body and soul.

In the Norse Pantheon, it is not totally known at the moment, but it is known that Odin the Allfather covered an entire realm in a mist to obscure it as well as having cosmic scale sealing (able to seal off whole realms from each other) and curses, taking away Freya's ability to fight even in self-defense, and that Baldur was totally unkillable without the usage of mistletoe. 

Beyond that, the Sisters of Fate are known to have time manipulation and fate manipulation, only Kratos resisting it via the hope buried within him. Titan King Cronos is implied as well to have time manipulation as it was he who created time. Primordial Morpheus was able to send the entire world into sleep. 

In terms of weaknesses....there isn't much. The verse is powerful, fast, broken and versatile. Some of the characters seemingly lack range yet. They are said to be able to change size even to Cosmic Sizes, capable of creating the galaxies by accident. Stealth wouldn't work due to their divine awareness and senses.

However there is a few things to notice. Some of the fighters rely on equipment and weapon which telekinesis could hypothetically take away. A number of fighters have weak points like Poseidon's chest cavity. Looking at what has actually worked in verse...

A Combination of small size with a massive range (universal) would possibly help as the fighters if they grew large to get high range would be really big and have difficulty hitting the small target, as happened with Kratos and Kronos. 

Also this is just a general observation, but while the verse possesses a lot of hax abilities AND Cosmic Power, it doesn't possess a lot of cosmic hax, in other words there are few haxes that are on the planetary scale, meaning that very high end versions of most haxes could hypothetically overpower the level that exists in the verse. Particularly Planetary+ Levels of Mind Hax or Soul Hax would probably do very well. 

Also, it should be noted that the Gods have turned evil because they were infected by the evils that were sealed in Pandora's Box. The Gods seemed to have limited defense against conceptual entities or spiritual warfare (Corruption/Purification). At this tier only Athena seems to have conceptual manipulation. Beings with abilities like that or can take advantage of the evil corrupting them, would likely be very good at playing them against their own weaknesses.

A conceptual entity....why that sounds like a good time for 

Death from Discworld.

Death is a being that exists outside linear spacetime, so he can't really be speedblitzed by the verse. Death is also a universal+ level entity able to threaten to destroy the universe purely by accident. 

Death however has more powers then this. He's a conceptual entity, being the concept of death which means only Athena would likely be able to affect him. His scythe is sharp enough to slice abstract concepts and even the absolute plane, able to slice the story itself as his scythe is beyond the concept of sharpness.

Death can also duplicate himself to an insane degree, able to duplicate himself into any number of Death Aspects. Death of the Rats is the aspect of Death that kills Rats, and can act independently. It's been estimated there are 8.7 million species in the world, which means as a massive lowball Death can duplicate 8.7 million times, likely much higher in the God of War verse. 

Death also has a range far beyond even the verse, as he can reap souls from all across the multiverse. As shown with Hades, the Gods have Souls, meaning that this would likely work on almost any divinities, save possibly Ascended Athena. 

Ascended Athena is basically the only potential counter to Death, but his scythe is definitely capable of killing her, and he's far more versatile then him. 

For a physical character within time that can probably also fight against the verse, you could do

Doctor Doom from Marvel Comics

Doctor Doom is powerful enough to compare to Doctor Strange who was able to cause the universe to tremble and battle powerful Demon Lords in their own realm requiring universal+ power. His speed....well to be honest his speed is probably his biggest weak point here being "only" in the quintillions of times the speed of light scaling from the Silver Surfer. That said so long as he doesn't get blitzed in the first moment he comes into being in the GOW-verse he should be able to stop the tier.

While Doctor Doom is slower, he has automatic magic shields, his armor automatically reacts and adapts to any threat incoming, and his consciousness exists in another dimension from his actual armor. As any one of the defenses would be difficult for the GOW-verse to get past even if they immediately attacked him, this gives me confidence he would have time to use his abilities.

Doctor Doom can shrink himself to the subatomic scale, where even divine awareness would have trouble combating while he can still hax them fine. Doctor Doom also possess spacetime manipulation inter-dimension scale that would prove troublesome for the verse as it's even superior to the time manipulation of the Sisters of Fate. Doctor Doom can casually time travel, can freeze time, can turn time into space, and can use his time cube to reverse time backwards, as well as using his spheres to BFR opponents across dimensions. Only Ares on this tier has shown inter-dimensional capacities. But Doctor Doom has even better power manipulation then Ares, having shown the ability to turn off the Scarlet Witch's magic, and having absorbed the energy and power of even stronger entities.

Doctor Doom can also enter dream space, a mental space, at will, suggesting he would be imperceptible to anyone in the verse, and being able to affect Athena physically. His presence was also warping the local laws of reality which would give him likely a form of passive defense to protect himself. He also has mind manipulation on a higher level then the GOW-verse as he was able to mentally affect every villain including Super Skrull in another galaxy, and Kang the Conqueror in the future. As the Gods were infected by the evils, it would likely work on them. The only real strategy that could be used against him is Odin's cosmic scale sealing ability. 

That said there is a character that I think would do even better, and is more thematically appropriate. That being

Phoenix Ikki from Saint Seiya.

Ikki's power was strong enough to knock the helmet off the God of Death Thanatos who could destroy 5 gold clothes at once. Thanatos was vastly stronger then the Judges of the Underworld, who were themselves superior to the Mid Tier Gold Saints like Aries Mu who could destroy the universe of a Titan with his attack. He was also able to survive the power of the Galaxian Explosion, most powerful attack technique of the Gold Saints, the user Gemini Saga was capable of one-shotting another Mid-Tier Gold Saint without his cloth (highly weakened).

In terms of speed, Phoenix Ikki was able to briefly match the speed of Gemini Saga back in the Sanctuary Arc, Gemini Saga capable of blitzing a Mid Tier Gold Saint without even using his cloth. Mid Tier Gold Saint Capricorn Shura was fast enough to outpace the initial expansion of the Big Bang, requiring speeds massively massively faster then light, likely septillions of times the speed of light. 

Also if Ikki's determination rises, he can even use the power of a God Saint, which would put him even higher then the verse statwise, outside of the infinite speed of parts of the GOW-verse. 

Ikki possesses the abilities of the Legendary Saints of Athena including manipulation of matter and energy on the atomic scale, up to his own dc/durability level, as well as the ability to evolve in response to his opponents powers, raising his own cosmo, and gaining resistance to any technique used against him.

Ikki's senses and attack range have grown to likely the inter-dimensional range as shown by when gold saints battled from different dimensions, higher then any of his opponents.

Ikki also possess soul and mind manipulation, capable of shattering an enemies mind and soul since literally his first appearance. Ikki's soul and manipulation comes to surpass that of the Sealed Titans with their ability to create whole dimensions filled with their own peoples with their own souls and minds. It was said that among the gold saints only Aries Mu and Libra Dohko would be able to even deliver a single mental jolt to the mind of Gemini Saga. Yet Phoenix Ikki even in the Sanctuary Arc was able to engage with Gemini Saga in a mental battle for 1,000 days. This is despite Virgo Shaka being able to maintain a mental dimension with many galaxies, and after ascending from enlightenment, Virgo Shaka and Virgo Shijima's mental battle involved the creation of whole mental universes. Phoenix Ikki has also been able to since the very first arc of his own, was able to reflect attacks, and notably the verse uses almost entirely projectile or beam abilities that can be reflected. 

Phoenix Ikki also possesses resistances to most abilities of the verse, any cosmo-user being able to resist universal scale time stop. 7th Sense users can resist the cosmo of the Titans which can manipulate minds and souls. Even the fate manipulation of the Sisters of Fate, legendary destroyer of gods, Phoenix Ikki can resist. As a Saint with the Holy Blood of a God on his cloth, Phoenix Ikki can resist the cosmos trying to destroy him via paradox, resisting the power of destiny. 

Phoenix Ikki as the legendary Phoenix Saint also possess the ability to come back from the dead stronger then ever. You know the joke about how Kratos always climbs his way out of the underworld? Ikki does that, but gets stronger each time from doing it. Ikki can resist every hax and can counter with hax on an even stronger level, and gets stronger just from them trying to fight him, even if they do kill him. 

Universal+ Scale Threat:

Transcending the entire Greek Pantheon is King of the Gods Zeus and his son the Ghost of Sparta Kratos. The two fought evenly with Kratos eventually winning. Zeus however became Fear Zeus who was strong enough to one-shot Kratos, but Kratos became Power of Hope (PoH) Kratos who was powerful enough to tank Fear Zeus's attacks.

The two of them were confirmed to be able to beat Polygon Man, the villain of PlayStation All-Stars Battle Royale who fused dozens of universes together. They are also faster then the prior tiers.

Zeus possess the power to wield his godly lightning strong enough to destroy almost anyone in the verse. Zeus has the power to duplicate himself many times over, as well to absorb lifeforce as he did to Gaia. Zeus also has conceptual manipulated as he sealed the evils away in Pandora's Box originally. When Zeus was infected by Fear, he merged with the concept to become Conceptual Fear Zeus who can induce fear in others and was strong enough to one-shot the Kratos he was evenly matched with before.

Kratos has basically a grab-bag of all the haxes that have come before. As current God of War, he has most likely the abilities that Ares possessed. He has a vast number of powerful weapons and items that he can summon at will, including the golden fleece which can reflect attacks, the claws of Hades which can soul rip as well as prior objects like the time manipulating Amulet of Uroborus. He is resistant to many haxes, most of the ones in the verse. He is famous for his rage, which is strong to warp reality and allows him to hit abstract concepts and even the absolute plane as he killed the creator of the game. Kratos also gained the Power of Hope and PoH Kratos was not only able to stomp Fear Zeus, but will himself back to life, to the point that Kratos can no longer die even if he wants.

In terms of weaknesses, it's essentially a stronger form of the prior term. Kratos is infamous for his rage, and Zeus was ruled by fear so manipulation might work. Telekinetically taking away Kratos weapons is a possibility. And cosmic scale haxes the character generally have not shown resistance too.

My first counter is pretty much ALL about the Cosmic Scale/Passive Haxes, that being

Sailor Chaos, the final villain of Sailor Moon.

Sailor Chaos easily scales to Nehelenia, who was only an aspect of her lesser form Chaos, and Nehelenia could maintain an entire mirror universe. Chaos could also react by scaling to the light of the Silver Crystal which can travel at just over 1 quintillion times the speed of light. While Sailor Chaos is weaker statwise, the sheer haxes would make her hellish to fight.

Sailor Chaos has passive universal spacetime warping as her weaker form Chaos was warping the far reaches of spacetime. Given that mere aspects of her exist outside of spacetime as well, she is highly unlikely to be blitzed.

Sailor Chaos also absorbs matter-energy, including lightning or weapons used against her, and is intangible. She can absorb star systems at will and has telekinesis capable of moving whole galaxies, which means she could rid Kratos of his weapons. She can regenerate from an "infinitesmal" part of herself, and could not be sealed by the Silver Crystal which sealed a being much larger then a planet away.

Sailor Chaos passively warps minds on a planetary scale suggesting that either Kratos or Zeus getting even close to her would cause them to be mindhaxed. While Kratos might be able to hit her by attacking the absolute plane, I think Sailor Chaos's sheer cosmic haxes would probably overwhelm Kratos and Zeus.

For another hax counter one could use 

Saturn from Saint Seiya Omega.

Saturn has a lot of the same abilities as Phoenix Ikki however he's even stronger. Saturn was able to match Ultimate Omega Cloth Pegasus Kouga who had the Cosmo of all the Omega Saints, Athena and Pallas, numerous of those being universal. He also is of a similar speed to the verse. While Saturn is a bit weaker then the verse, he's just as fast and has resistances to all of their abilities.

As a Saint Seiya God, Saturn can passively disable the 5 senses and the mind of any nearby entities. Zeus and Kratos do not have any real defense to this outside of Kratos arguably having some mental resistance. Even if this distracts them for a second, Saturn has universal time stop at will. Kratos has shown the ability to move during a Time Stop, but never one that encompasses the entire universe. Beyond that Saturn has inter-universal senses and the ability to warp reality and cosmo on a cosmic scale via dunamis, which allows for the creation or manipulation of reality. 

However for a more elegant solution to this I would suggest using

Adara from DC Comics.

Adara is one of the Emotional Entities, representing Hope on a universal scale. Adara gives power to the entire Blue Lantern Corps. Adara is comparable in power to Ion, the Green Lantern entities which gives powers to 7,200 Green Lanterns at once, each of them hypothetically able to rise up to universal levels of power. Adara should also be stronger then Zero Hour Parallax who could destroy many timelies. As such, Adara is likely stronger then either Zeus or Kratos in raw power.

Lanterns tend to have abilities like spacetime manipulation or mind manipulation on a cosmic scale, and as such the Emotional Entities should scale to that. All the Emotional Entities can deform and warp the universe on a cosmic scale, implied to be universal, which would be much higher then Zeus or Kratos could handle.

However it's what Adara represents that would make it so OP in God of War. Kratos is powered by Hope, and Hope was the weakness of Fear Zeus. Adara is Hope itself and possesses those of great Hope. Adara would most likely possess Kratos, and destroy Fear Zeus on account of it being his weakness exactly. Adara is basically the personification of the force that in-universe for God of War is by far the strongest power, as well as being a more articulated and versatile conceptual form of it. 

And that's how to be OP in God of War.