"Sorry if I sounded accusatory on the context
statement, when we add scans here we generally also add the context via
summarizing (Adding an entire chapter to a page is kind of too much)"
Sorry about my being over sensitive. I was on the OBD and near the end I got falsely accused of doing bad things like creating multiple accounts to try and make it look like there was more support then there was.
"On page 96, Homura refers to the World of the Witches
as the 'former' world, implying it no longer exists. Page 122 just outright
states that the timeline her shield is connected to is obselete. So when you
inevitably get to the scan, the context (not to mention its literally stated
that AoC would destroy absolutely everything) is the annhilation of the World
of the Wraiths, similar to what occured to the World of the Witches. The page
right after also has Homura stating the world would be destroyed. There might
be a misunderstanding here if I'm reading the blog response correctly, the feat
doesn't belong to UM here, it belongs to AoC (UM scales via being God Tier and
other scaling stuffs) for threatening to destroy the World of Wraiths. The UM
feat comes from episode 12, but Chapter 9 gives the reveal that the rewrite
didn't just keep the multiverse in one piece, but rather
destroyed/recreated/seperated the World of Witches (Main Series) and the World
of Wraiths (Wraith Arc / Most of Rebellion). I explained further in my
paragraph after the next one."
Madoka becomes the law of cycles. The Universe (World of Witches) is in reordered in response becoming the World of Wraiths. Thus the World of Witches is the former world, Homura's shield is not connected to it, and the annihilation of the world of wraiths to be caused by the AoC is universal. This is the point I was getting at originally which is this feat is only considered multiversal by scaling to another feat.
If the Wraith Arc was a completely original story this would not be considered multiversal. It's considered multiversal because the assumption is that what happened to the World of Witches is a multiversal feat and so what would happen to the World of Wraiths is also necessarily a multiversal feat.
"He says in one of the scans presented here regarding
it no longer being time manipulation. If it was just time manipulation, then
conceptually, Wraiths wouldn't exist though as a replacement for Witches."
Actually he is more ambigous since his statement can be read as it's not JUST time manipulation (Kyubey: we won't just be talking about temporal manipulation any more!), suggesting it is time manipulation as well as more then that. The next line, that she will be defying the very laws of causality itself, seem to suggest that he is saying to be acausal is not just time manipulation.
Right. The existence of wraiths is due to the reordering of the universe in response to the law of cycles existing. I don't understand if the implication is supposed to be that Madoka created the wraiths and if so...why? I viewed them as the new manifestations of humans curses in the changed timeline after Madoka ascends since they can no longer become witches.
For what it's worth the Madoka wiki seems to agree with me
"Because Madoka's wish only erased witches, grief was
not removed from the new world as Madoka didn't change human nature. As a
result, the wraiths are distortions of Madoka's cause and effect of her wish,
and give magical girls other means of obtaining grief seeds to clean their soul
gems and combat entropy."
Though in fairness, relying on wikis is certainly not always reliable!
"Changing a law and time traveling are very different,
one affects all of space and time on a fundamental level, the other had a
limited effect (relative to the entire timeline, rewinding a month or so is
nothing compared to the entire history of the universe) on a level limited to
human actions."
Madoka became a law, she became the law of cycles, and so instances of her appeared at every point in time a witch WOULD have appeared and stopped them. Let's say she did nothing else but this.
This would cause an immense change to the universe, to the point that the universe "re-ordering" itself would be the logical result of her actions.
Let's compare for instance Homura's Time Traveling and what happens when Madoka ascends?
When Homura time traveled, she went back let's say a month (though that isn't the limit). The timeline she left is the "past" timeline while the timeline she goes to is the "current" timeline. If Homura makes a change, then the current timeline's future changes.
Madoka does on screen for every single magical girl, changing her future, causing an untold amount of changes to the timeline.
Madoka being able to change a multiversal law = multiverse level has two problems so far.
1: It is simply assumed here that changing a multiversal law is the same as being multiverse level. However if Madoka fights a being outside spacetime like she is, then the difference between being able to shift a spacetime on say a multiversal scale is not the same thing as being able to destroy a multiverse. If Madoka was fighting a similar being existing outside spacetime, how would being able to shift the spacetime of even the multiverse be able to be used offensively? You could say it's spacetime hax but if it's attack potency I would expect it to be a form of attack carrying that energy that could be used on any target.
2: I don't think Madoka can change a multiversal law. Madoka says, pre-ascension to Kyubey that if any rule/law gets in her way she will destroy or change it. This is pre-ascension so her own limits would probably be unknown to her. It's heavily implied that she can destroy a concept and the Wraith Arc Manga states numerous times "Madoka's new law/laws" which I took to mean her conceptual self, the law of cycles. That said laws and concepts can exist on any number of scales. To use a bit of extreme examples; Axis Powers Hetalia has country-scale concepts and I hear that Dungeons and Dragons has city-scale concepts. Can you show a statement that Madoka's conceptual abilities can destroy a concept on a multiversal scale?
"There is also the fact (Once again refering to Chapter
9) that the World of the Witches was destroyed during the rewriting process.
This adds a bit more detail into Madoka's rewriting, so even if you want to
ignore her multiversal law manip one still has to accomidate for the fact that
the World of Witches is busted."
This seems to be...a rather...obvious statement no? The timeline of witches is gone, to be replaced by the timeline of wraiths. This is because of the changes Madoka made which caused the universe to re-order itself into a new universe. I don't see how this is multiversal.
"Regarding the "destroy any rule that stands in her
way" statement, as far as I know, most wishes have been accomplished in a
very literal sense. I'm not sure why it wouldn't be in that case either."
Not true my friend! Wishes give abilities that are symbolically associated with the wish stated rather then literal manifestation of the wish.
Sayaka wished for an arm to be healed and she gained healing and regeneration abilities.
Tart wished for the power to bring light to France, and wasn't just given light powers but powers related to what she symbolically meant.
Also if you're REALLY splitting hairs, and I don't agree with this, but playing devil's advocate, you could say that Madoka's wish is her declaration of what she "wants" that being to erase every witch before they are born with the statement "destroy or change any rule that stands in her way" being a statement of intent. I would disagree that because she ends that by saying "That is my prayer. That is my wish."
Also again, concepts can exist on different scales. Her being able to destroy a concept is not saying she can destroy the multiverse. Wonder Woman's lasso of truth is the universal, possibly multiversal concept of "truth". Does breaking it constitute a multiversal feat?
"The skirt and Magia Reco stuff was in reference to the
omnipresence debate, not the AP."
Oh! Sorry for mistaking.
Can you explain how "Madoka's skirt is the universe" and "Madoka trying to enter the universe would destroy it" equates to Madoka being multiversally omnipresent? I honestly don't see the argument here. Sorry.
"Regarding speed: I mean, that's pretty good. Much
better than most verses like PMMM even, from what I've seen."
I guess? I know when I'm trying to explain Madoka's speed, the best I can do usually is state that for Madoka it doesn't really matter and then when pushed to saying that it's "probably" in the quadrillions range due to being probably as fast as Homura's magic which spread across the universe in seconds which didn't seem that fast to me. I mean let me give some comparisons.
DBS: Quadrillions of times speed of light. Toei Canon is even worse then that since Base Goku and Pikkon traveled the underworld at quadrillions of times the speed of light.
Sailor Moon: Sailor Moon's light twice goes to outside the universe in seconds. Complete Rookie Eternal Sailor Senshi can move faster then the Lambda Power which can restore the entire universe almost instantly
Saint Seiya: a Huge number of casual inter-universal speed feats, with a mid-tier Gold Saint capable of outpacing the original big bang
DC Comics: Green Lanterns casual speed is able to cross the 100 trillion lightyear long universe at quadrillions of times the speed of light.
if you think Madoka is a really hax multiversal level verse, then having speed feats kind of on par to these seems a bit on the low side on my opinion. This though is obviously completely subjective.
"Do... do I know you?"
No sorry, I just avoid going on versus forums because I have gotten mobbed by people angry a few times now and I really don't want to do it again.
"In Magia Record, Ultimate Madoka can hear multiple
records, each one being a different timeline."
Madoka sees all the universes that could have been and might be, universes that don't currently exist.
"Touka wants to use the powers of the Mirror Witch to
create portals towards other universes, meaning multiple universes can exist at
the same time."
This is fair. Conceded that multiple universes exist at one time.
"Ultimate Madoka not only affected the World of Witches
but also turned it into a non-existent realm."
Again you are begging the question by assuming that the World of Witches refers to the entire multiverse rather then the universe Homura is from where Witches once existed. Also became things that didn't exist could as well describe the universe re-ordering itself as it did from Madoka's wish into a new universe. That would make the old universe, the world of witches, into that which doesn't exist.
"The Goddess keeping watch over magical girls from past
to future and from the present to the other side of the universe. She, who is
omniscient, knows all the magical girls and blesses them. However, she found a
magical girl she does not know for the first time in her life."
All this states is that Madoka watches over all Magical girls across a singular universe's timeline, knows everyone of them and blesses them, and found a magical girl she did not know. This is a weaker version of what I said.
"Why shouldn't the statement "Concept Killer Combo" be used here? That is literally the best way to prove Madoka can destroy concepts."
Because due to it being stated to be a "concept killer combo" in a stylized way like a video game makes it seem like hyperbole. If you were playing a spectacle fighter and reached 100 hits and they called it a "world-ending combo" you wouldn't say that's planetary. Now granted, I actually do think Madoka can destroy a concept. But if I didn't this wouldn't be something I would think is very convincing.
Saying that Madoka exists beyond the future means she exists outside time? Known and Agreed. How is that multiversal? Beyond the stars? Similar with space. Known and Agreed. Madoka is not bound to a physical spacetime as a concept. How does that mean she can destroy a multiverse?
"Madoka rewrote the World of Witches, created the World
of Wraiths and turned the former into a non-existent realm. She literally
erased a multiverse from existence, which is a much greater feat than simply
destroying it."
This is begging the quesetion by simply assuming the things that are being argued about. I was asking for two pieces of evidence
A: That the World of Witches refers specifically to a multiverse, rather then just the universe Homura was in. You showed that other universes exist, that's good.
B: Show that Madoka actually destroyed that multiverse, or some equivalent instead of simply causing many changes to the timeline which caused the timeline to change into a new timeline.
That is all that is written so far.
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