So I'm going to comment on some of them comments made towards my own blog. Not something I like to do generally but I hope it can remain friendly. Thank you.
"The book Queen Mami got her information from is the
same one that allows her to absorb magic from across the multiverse, needless
to say I would trust said information. Not sure why one has to have infinite
sensory abilities and speed to read said information from the book?"
I wasn't focusing a lot on this part because, as I say in the next paragraph, I agree with the Madoka multiverse having infinite universes so I wasn't really thinking about it.
My actual thinking however if you're wondering: Mami doesn't specifically say she found out about the concept of parallel universes and there being infinite from the book. She says she found the method to steal power from alternate versions of herself. She says there are infinite universes prior to that, introducing the concept to Homura. The reason I mentioned senses and speed, is the only way to confirm an unending amount of things, as opposed to merely an amount that is seemingly unending to the perspective of the user (IE an amount beyond that they could ever personally experience) is by perceiving an unending amount of things either at once time (sensing) or via infinite speed. Mami never states that she got the information on how many universes there are from the book, only that she learned how to take the power of her other selves.
Again it really doesn't matter since there is agreement here.
"The AoC page is kind of vague if removed from context
like the blog, but if you would read on (Chapter 9 specifically) it actually
shows the World of Witches post-Madokami with only UKG existing in it."
I am not sure how I removed it from context. I simply posted what vs battles wiki uses an argument since I was stating that some claims of multiversal are only multiversal by reference to other feats. I have reread the chapter and I can not find the evidence in it that Madoka's feat was multiversal. Can you cite a page? Again I have read all the Madoka manga.
Is it where it is stated "this world and the previous world where you rewinded time are different"? Is it when time is rewinding by Madoka's intervention? Where in the wraith arc is it stated that Madoka performs a multiversal feat?
"I'll agree that the concept of witches part is
innaccurate, but that's only because the revision of it is on hold (Check the
General Discussion thread for PMMM and you'll see it there.)"
I am REALLY glad to hear that! 😃 This was the part that really annoyed me because when I tried to debate people on this, this was the thing they always brought up and it just wasn't true. You'd have to ignore the Madoka story to think Madoka erased the concept of witches and, permit me to fangirl, but as I said I really care about the Madoka story.
"Though the writer also admits it was refering to
causality, which would result in the same rating anyways?"
Would it? Why does being acausal suggest she would be multiversal?
Kyubey says you will be opposing the very rules of causality itself, showing that Madoka is not bound by causality. Obviously that can't be it, since characters like Professor Paradox are acausal but are not multiversal.
It's clear Madoka didn't destroy or warp the multiversal concept of causality, she simply transcended such that it no longer applied to her.
Yes Madoka does say she will change or destroy any rule that stands in her way, but this is pre-ascension Madoka speaking in defiance to Kyubey, and not something she actually does, nor is it ever stated by her that she can do so on a multiversal scale.
"Kyubey states this is beyond just time manipulation"
Where? He says Madoka has ceased to have a beginning or an end, basically saying she was beyond time but he never suggested the changes to the universe were not temporally based. Is it where he stated it could "unravel the very fabric of time"? That doesn't seem beyond time manipulation, that just seems like really good time manipulation.
Also even if it was beyond time manipulation, that doesn't suggest the universe didn't change because of the changes made within it across time. Madoka became the laws of cycle and killed every witch before it was born. Naturally this changed the timeline.
"Not to mention, even if we assume every universe
changed because of time manip, it only occured because Madoka rewrote the laws
of the multiverse in the first place."
Citation please on rewriting the laws of the multiverse. Madoka became a conceptual law, which caused the universe to re-order itself. It doesn't even state that Madoka reordered the universe, but that the universe re-ordered itself.
Also even taking that as granted, Madoka changing a conceptual law, causing the multiverse to change, I don't understand why that would be a multiversal "attack potency" feat. Again a character that can go back in time, could change the timeline and in a manner of speaking "end" the original timeline. However this is clearly not what we mean by a universal feat, as if they were fighting a universal character then it wouldn't help at all.
"The last argument is outdated by Magia Record (Ult.
Madoka could have destroyed the universe by merely attempting to enter it, not
purposefully either) and WoG (UM's dress alone is apparently a universe in
itself),"
....yeah? I said Madoka was universal. I didn't say all the feats but those are two more universal feats. I guess they're more casual then the ones I mentioned but they don't contradict my saying that Madoka was universal at all.
Also it was Madoka's skirt that was universal, not her dress. You could maybe argue that's actually low multiversal since depictions of her show that she's much bigger then her skirt though to use vs battles wiki terminology if the Madoka universe is infinite, then Axiom of Choice (Multiplying numbers where at least one is infinite, means that the product is simply the highest cardinality among them) means that it would make literally 0 difference and if you think it's finite then it would only be higher into 3-A and not go from low 2-c to 2-c.
"Side note: Funny thing about the lack of speed feats
statement, we have a MFTL+ feat and a few rel to sub-rel ones too nowadays."
Again, not really in contradiction to what I said. I didn't say it had no speed feats, but that it lacked a lot of good speed feats. Maybe I'm biased by the fact that some of my favorite series are DC Comics and Saint Seiya but I'm used to Universal+ verses having casual quadrillions of times ftl feats all over the place. Having a few relativistic feats and one mftl one seems pretty lacking to me for a universal+ verse.
The highest speed feat I can think of for Madoka is the quadrillions of times the speed of light feat of Homura's barrier encompassing the universe, though I don't know exactly how you would scale that to Madoka. Technically Madoka reacted to it point blank, but also all the other Magical Girls present reacted to it, so you would have to suggest that the lower level Magical Girls have quadrillions of times mftl reaction/attack speed. She also has a few other objectively ftl feats and scaling but again I was just saying in comparison.
I know vs battles wiki uses a different speed metric, based on characters moving in zero time or negative time. I personally don't agree with these presumptions (I don't want to make this a debate of standard versus assumptions but I don't think you could 0 in the denominator ever, since that's dividing by zero. Speed is (Change in Space/Change in Time) so moving in 0 time is dividing by zero) though yeah, if you do include them she would be obviously "immeasurable" in speed at least.
"That blog is inaccurate. First of all, multiple
universes can coexist at the same time in the Puella Magi verse, as shown in
both Homura Tamura and Magia Record. And there is no way Queen Mami's statement
is wrong (until proven otherwise)."
Few Problems:
A: Neither of those show that, unless I missed something. Queen Mami for instance being able to take power from other versions of herself does not suggest those are not "previous" versions of her or "future" versions of her. In fact Homura implies that it is fact previous versions of her since she states Queen Mami taking power from the other Mamis is why Mami died.
B: Also again Mami doesn't say the book is where she got this information and this is not a big part of my blog.
"Ultimate Madoka was stated to be able to destroy
concepts in Magia Report, which can be considered canon (just like Homura
Tamura) because Madoka-senpai, Iroha-chan and Felicia-chan literally appeared
in Magia Record and were stated to come from a different universe than the
Magia Record timeline (that universe also showed to transcend all the other
universes of the verse)."
I never stated that it wasn't canon. Also being able to destroy concepts does not automatically make you multiversal as concepts can exist on different scales and they are not physical things. Also the basis really shouldn't be a statement saying "Concept Killer Combo!!!" There's better arguments for it then that.
“Madoka basically affected all the previous universes
(the World of Witches) and created the World of Wraiths. The World of Wraiths
is the equivalent of the World of Witches, but it contains wraiths instead of
witches and a magical girl doesn't turn out into a witch after she taints her
soul gem, but she disappears and is taken away by Ultimate Madoka.”
A: "Affected" does not mean scales to the maximum possible value of this. I used the Flash and universe example deliberately to show that "affecting" a structure does not mean being able to destroy it.
B: Show that was multiple universes.
"And yes, the last statement is also debunked in Magia
Record. Ultimate Madoka can watch over magical girls from past to future and
from the present to the other side of the universe. She can also exist beyond
the future, beyond the stars and beyond the infinite universes."
Please cite the statement you wish to discuss. Madoka can see all possible universes and all universes that could have been as well as the universe that is. All of that I have seen. Stating that she is "beyond" something is a far cry from stating she can just destroy it unless you take a really generous interpretation. It could just mean that again, she exists outside spacetime.
"Regarding the speed feats of the Puella Magi verse. It
literally contains 3 MFTL+ feats, a MFTL feat, and a few FTL, Relativistic and
Sub-Relativistic feats. There is no way to say it doesn't have speed feats."
I didn't say it doesn't have any speed feats. I said it lacked a lot of good speed feats, which in comparison to a lot of universal+ verses I think is not an unfair thing to say. Even if it is, my whole point with that small part was to say speed is basically irrelevant to her existing outside of spacetime and causality.
The rest of it is so far is just stating speed feats, which again is not what I stated. Quoting myself here:
"The verse lacks a lot of good speed feats"
Emphasis added.
Compared to like Saint Seiya, I would say it does. Maybe you disagree and think that SS is an outlier speedwise. But you can't tell me Madoka has lots of great speed feats. Outside of the Momoko feat (Which I'm not sure you should go and say is the actual edge of the universe, that seems a pretty massive outlier given her relative tier....though I guess you could say it's consistent with the other Magical Girls reacting to Homura's magic in rebellion) the fastest one is in the hundreds of times range (outside of Itzli who lacks a timeframe). Even being really generous it has 2 speed feats in the quadrillions of times lightspeed, maybe 2 in the billions, like 1 in the hundreds and a number in the low ftl range. I mean that's basically the same amount as Sailor Moon, which I also complain doesn't have a lot of speed feats.
That is all that is written as of the time of me writing this.
So um....yeah. Hope things can remain friendly, even if you disagree. I'm going to be honest, I really don't want another explosively angry versus debate. I would much rather we agree to disagree. Please don't hate me.
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